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Old 10-10-2013, 07:11 AM   #15
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not sure if I am comparing my apples to your oranges

My van came with metal pressure monitor valves. I had a slow leak and figured out it was the valve. It had rusted. I went to the ( Chevy ) dealer to get a replacement , and the parts guy said that the metal valves are discontinued , and that the new ones are rubber/plastic. Since they knew of a problem, I was hoping that it would be under warrantee. NOPE $$$$$$$$. I am now saving to replace the other three, that all have started to rust.

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When I converted to 16" wheels and tires on both my rigs, I had metal stems put in rather than the rubber ones. The Costco price was under $2 each wheel, extra. Of course they still use a rubber seal washer between the wheel and the stem, but probably are well worth the slight extra cost. A great tire, with a poor stem will fail just as well as a poor tire with a poor stem. I have seen one year old rubber stems crack and fail due to sun exposure. Like everything else it seems that we even have poorly made rubber stems these days.
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Old 10-10-2013, 07:15 AM   #16
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As a tire engineer, I have dealt with these types statistical problems in the past. The problem always boils down to comparing apples to apples.

For example: It would be incorrect to infer that because someone who had a series of failures with ST tires, who then switched to LT tires and has not had any failures, that LT tires must be superior in some way. The reason this is incorrect thinking is that there are too many other things that could be impacting the results. Allow me to list a few:

1) If 10% of the people experience something, that means that 90% do not. So if someone experiences a tire failure, it also means he is not likely to experience another.

2) Many people who experience tire failures, upgrade their maintenance procedures, and/or change their operating conditions (speed, loads, etc), and/or upgrade their tires and wheels.

3) People who do not experience tire failures tend not to be interested in discussing tire failures other people had - and vice versa. That means the population of people looking at this thread (and others like it) tend to be folks who have experienced a tire failure. (PLEASE NOTE the use to the word "tend" - meaning that it is far from a 100% cause and effect. Many people are just naturally interested.)
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Old 10-10-2013, 07:31 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by CapriRacer View Post
As a tire engineer, I have dealt with these types statistical problems in the past. The problem always boils down to comparing apples to apples.

For example: It would be incorrect to infer that because someone who had a series of failures with ST tires, who then switched to LT tires and has not had any failures, that LT tires must be superior in some way. The reason this is incorrect thinking is that there are too many other things that could be impacting the results. Allow me to list a few:

1) If 10% of the people experience something, that means that 90% do not. So if someone experiences a tire failure, it also means he is not likely to experience another.

2) Many people who experience tire failures, upgrade their maintenance procedures, and/or change their operating conditions (speed, loads, etc), and/or upgrade their tires and wheels.

3) People who do not experience tire failures tend not to be interested in discussing tire failures other people had - and vice versa. That means the population of people looking at this thread (and others like it) tend to be folks who have experienced a tire failure. (PLEASE NOTE the use to the word "tend" - meaning that it is far from a 100% cause and effect. Many people are just naturally interested.)
I agree completely. I have had more than a couple of stats classes in my day. However, I also live in the "customer service, mechanical world" and my experience allows for the little hairs to stand up on the back of my neck when there's a rat. And up they are.

There are way too many people here, particularly in the hot south, who have had multiple ST failures to ignore.

Yes, it takes time, volume and valid statistical failure mode analysis to draw accurate definitive conclusions, but real world experience of failure has borne out to be at least an issue, if not the root cause many more times than not. And yes, I have had to drag the engineering community behind me many times to prove it when the volume isn't there for a statistical conclusion.
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Old 10-10-2013, 07:34 AM   #18
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I don't disagree with Capri....AT ALL

But I would also add that people who own Airstreams , and especially people from this forum " tend " to be a lot more careful of their trailers, and research more than owners of SOBs.
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Old 10-10-2013, 09:21 AM   #19
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I can only relay personal experience with the 16" Michelins on our 12 classic. I took the GYMs off and switched to the LTs for peace of mind. I had no failures but want to tow at the speed limit. About 5k miles on the LTs with no issues.

Just wondering what is on all those u haul trailers flying down the interstate.
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Old 10-10-2013, 11:35 AM   #20
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Looking more and more like Andy is right - again.

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Old 10-10-2013, 11:43 AM   #21
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Looking more and more like Andy is right - again.

Poppy
Which "Andy"?
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Old 10-10-2013, 11:48 AM   #22
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The statistics that you talk about below are the exact reason I use LT or P metric tires. They have alot of history behind them and the manufactures do care because lives are at stake and not just a trailer. If trailer tires had the engineering and quality control backing that passenger car and truck tires have, then I would say yes they can perform as well as anything else. I think the ST tire failures are statistically significant and are not a result of a smaller data set.

Perry

Quote:
Originally Posted by CapriRacer View Post
As a tire engineer, I have dealt with these types statistical problems in the past. The problem always boils down to comparing apples to apples.

For example: It would be incorrect to infer that because someone who had a series of failures with ST tires, who then switched to LT tires and has not had any failures, that LT tires must be superior in some way. The reason this is incorrect thinking is that there are too many other things that could be impacting the results. Allow me to list a few:

1) If 10% of the people experience something, that means that 90% do not. So if someone experiences a tire failure, it also means he is not likely to experience another.

2) Many people who experience tire failures, upgrade their maintenance procedures, and/or change their operating conditions (speed, loads, etc), and/or upgrade their tires and wheels.

3) People who do not experience tire failures tend not to be interested in discussing tire failures other people had - and vice versa. That means the population of people looking at this thread (and others like it) tend to be folks who have experienced a tire failure. (PLEASE NOTE the use to the word "tend" - meaning that it is far from a 100% cause and effect. Many people are just naturally interested.)
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Old 10-10-2013, 11:55 AM   #23
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Which "Andy"?
Steve...

Andy in Ontario. He was maybe the first to use 15" Michelin LT's and took a lot of gas about it. Here's a link:

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f438...tml#post914066

Poppy
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Old 10-10-2013, 12:03 PM   #24
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Steve...

Andy in Ontario. He was maybe the first to use 15" Michelin LT's and took a lot of gas about it. Here's a link:

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f438...tml#post914066

Poppy
I confess to not going to re-read that thread after quite some time....but it depends on what trailers he's recommending them. On my 30'er there was not enough weight capacity to use the 15's, with any reserve with which I was comfortable. On a shorter AS, maybe, depending on your scale readings. The 15's are not LTs, they are p-metric XLs (extra load) rated at 2180 pounds, IIRC.

I just put them on my van yesterday...I do like them and would use them on smaller ASes.
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Old 10-10-2013, 12:16 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Birdmaestro View Post
Steve...

Andy in Ontario. He was maybe the first to use 15" Michelin LT's and took a lot of gas about it. Here's a link:

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f438...tml#post914066

Poppy
OK, thanks, just wanted that clarified because there is another well known "Andy" on here that advocates using nothing but what is OE, or the GYM's.
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Old 10-10-2013, 12:25 PM   #26
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Here's a link that works:

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f438...tml#post914066

The ones he mentions here are listed as LT's:
235/75R x 15 LT Michelins - Post dated 2010.

Great idea to start this thread BTW. Sample size will always be fairly small, but nice to have empirical evidence about tires as opposed to opinion.

Poppy
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Old 10-10-2013, 04:51 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Birdmaestro View Post
Here's a link that works:

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f438...tml#post914066

The ones he mentions here are listed as LT's:
235/75R x 15 LT Michelins - Post dated 2010.

Great idea to start this thread BTW. Sample size will always be fairly small, but nice to have empirical evidence about tires as opposed to opinion.

Poppy
Nothing on their website but these in that size.

P235/75R15/XL 108 T

The only 235s in an LT are 80 aspect ratio and 17"...or 85s in a 16".

They are all named an "LTX", which is a marketing name and not a construction term. Adds confusion a lot.
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Old 10-10-2013, 05:08 PM   #28
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Rich...

Maybe it's changed in the last three years? In any event, what are the thoughts on these for a '90 25' Excella, dry weight 5,000 pounds? Are there 15" LT's that would work? I don't like the pot stickers there are on there now, but I'd rather avoid the expense of going to 16" (I'm trying to recover from SDO - shiny object disorder).

Thanks,
Poppy
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