Oh No, Marathon issue!

[Tireman9]

Originally Posted by pappy19

Add me to that list. Putting $100 ST tires on an $80k+ AS, is beyond my comprehension. I had to go through three GYM blowouts before I decided to go the 16" Michelin LT route along with Centramtics on both my AS and my F-250. BTW, you can't get Centramatics for any 1/2 ton SUV or pickup, but you can for the 3/4-1 ton pickups.

maybe that is a question best answered by Airstream. It is their choice to select a tire type and size that does not provide the safety margin used on cars & trucks or that is needed by the end user of their product.
I personally believe this is the result of the lack of a real interest in constant improvement in quality in the RV industry as a whole.
Why is the warranty on today's RVs about the same as we had from Detroit in 1970? I think that this absolves the RV manufacturer from having to do the hard work of doing the job of designing an RV better. If they can manage to deliver the RV to the buyer it appears that many are glad to wash their hands of any responsibility for what they assembled.

[slowmover]

Originally Posted by Tireman9

maybe that is a question best answered by Airstream. It is their choice to select a tire type and size that does not provide the safety margin used on cars & trucks or that is needed by the end user of their product.
I personally believe this is the result of the lack of a real interest in constant improvement in quality in the RV industry as a whole.
Why is the warranty on today's RVs about the same as we had from Detroit in 1970? I think that this absolves the RV manufacturer from having to do the hard work of doing the job of designing an RV better. If they can manage to deliver the RV to the buyer it appears that many are glad to wash their hands of any responsibility for what they assembled.

I think much of it has to do with these factors:

1] Length of Ownership
2] Miles Travelled/Nights Aboard (in that period)

Of all the RV's on the road I imagine that few average more than 5k miles or 50-nights aboard on an annual basis. I've not researched this but it stands to reason that this low usage (compared a family car) might account for the shoddy practices of the RV industry as a whole as owners may not run into the whole host of problems the unit will eventually suffer. If the RV in question is kept less than 10-years (and I think this common), then "they" are off the hook.

After all, there are many will first buy when they are to retire, and then may buy another, all in less than ten years. Just check the odometer readings on used Class A mohos.

For those who consider an RV worthwhile such that -- akin to a sailboat -- that they may be using it twenty years hence, the design & construction are far more important (and questions of road performance rank more highly).

Among SOB owners it would not surprise me that ownership is about 5-ears. That over a thirty year period one may have had nearly a half-dozen units. Sort of like trading a car with a 15-yr working life every 5-years. I have seen this on other RV forums.

The oilfield man camps here in the Eagle Ford are just jammed with second owner 5-10 year old TT's and 5'ers. Deteriorating-in-place.

Airstream is no leader in technology as once they might have been seen.

Tires and brakes on the newest units are also at about the 1970 tech level, not just warranty.

ST tires are about good enough for a TT that is to be set in place and not moved again.

.

[ROBERTSUNRUS]

Originally Posted by newroswell

That's exactly how my GYM's formed after 9000 miles. I had been checking pressure and looking closely at them from the beginning. After a short trip I noticed 2 larger bulges forming. I have a good relationship with my tire guy. I sat in his office while he tried to get to some help from his Goodyear representative. Nothing. He told me that in all the times he has tried to get warranty coverage from GY on a tire that is not brand new, they insist that the owner must have hit a curb and caused damage.

Originally Posted by newroswell

I agree with all that, but the tires were not damaged, they were defective. Not a scratch on the sidewalls anywhere, I've never hit a curb or anything else with them. 2 of the 4 where fine.

Hi, newroswell; My story, almost exactly word for word. Two tires with sidewall bubbles, one on the inside, and the other on the outside. Idiot at tire store said that I ran over something. Well, for three years [at that time] I ran over a lot of things, concrete, asphalt, dirt, water, ice, snow, gravel, Etc. And if I ran over anything bad for my trailer tires, I ran over the same thing with my Lincoln. So why are the only tires effected are the ones on my trailer. In my opinion, tire dealers and manufacturers, give every B.S. excuse in the world for not honoring their product.

[ROBERT CROSS]

......but I do remove for Winter storage, cover during the Season and keep off the pad, max 65mph and watch pressures like OCD.
First OEM set replaced in 2010.

Bob

[pappy19]

It is interesting that a number of 5th wheel companies have 16" LT E rated tires from the factory. I have seen them on new rigs.

[dannydimitt]

Originally Posted by pappy19

It is interesting that a number of 5th wheel companies have 16" LT E rated tires from the factory. I have seen them on new rigs.

With 10 or 12 thousand pounds on two axles , I don't think they have many options, unless they went with LPT tires that a lot of low platform
semi trailers use . 17.5 or 19.5 inch
just sayin

[Tireman9]

Originally Posted by ROBERTSUNRUS

Hi, newroswell; My story, almost exactly word for word. Two tires with sidewall bubbles, one on the inside, and the other on the outside. Idiot at tire store said that I ran over something. Well, for three years [at that time] I ran over a lot of things, concrete, asphalt, dirt, water, ice, snow, gravel, Etc. And if I ran over anything bad for my trailer tires, I ran over the same thing with my Lincoln. So why are the only tires effected are the ones on my trailer. In my opinion, tire dealers and manufacturers, give every B.S. excuse in the world for not honoring their product.

Robert There is a good chance the reason you could run over the same stuff with your tow vehicle without tire problems is that the tires on your Lincoln are not as highly stressed as your "Special Trailer" tires.

As I have pointed out in my blog, the load tables for ST type tires are based on assumptions about trailer tire usage 40 years ago. As a result an ST tire is somehow supposed to be able to carry 54% more load at the same inflation as a non speed rated LT tire. The LT tire is rated to pass an 85 mph test but the ST tire is never to exceed 65. Personally I don't understand or agree that a 20 mph reduction is sufficient to offset a 54% load increase. If we look at speed rated LT tires we see they are designed to carry 15% less load than the ST type, but by design they are supposed to have a normal "safety factor" of 9% so we are really looking at a load reduction of about 24%.

It is also well documented that over 55% of towables are running at least one tire overloaded based on the tables. I would challenge the readers of this forum to provide the numbers for their individual tire load when the RV is at its heaviest and can they say they always drive less than 60mph.

Some think that driving above 65 only occasionally and only by 5 or 10 mph is no big thing. I wounder if they think that running an engine at or 10% above its Rev limit is also acceptable practice.

[Tireman9]

Originally Posted by dannydimitt

With 10 or 12 thousand pounds on two axles , I don't think they have many options, unless they went with LPT tires that a lot of low platform
semi trailers use . 17.5 or 19.5 inch
just sayin

Be careful if looking at LPT tires. Some have a lower speed rating that ST type.

[SteveH]

Not a Marathon, but a club member/friend had a Maxxis "ST" tire come apart on the way back from our Rockport rally yesterday, and we stopped to help change the tire.

It was the typical "ST" tire failure, it was four years old, the remainder of the tread we found stuck between the brake backing plate and the axle had more than sufficient tread depth. Other than that small portion of tread, all that remained of the tire was the beads, and small portions of the side wall. He was fortunate the only damage to the trailer was the wheel well molding and the area of the belly pan and banana wrap directly behind the curb side tire.

Interesting observation was the remaining tire on that side of the trailer also showed some tread separation starting, and the spare had even more. He decided to continue on at 50 MPH since it was Sunday, and he made it home (100 miles) with no additional failures. This tells me that if a close inspection is done frequently of the tread on these tires, potential failures might be caught before doing so much damage.

[dannydimitt]

Originally Posted by SteveH

Not a Marathon, but a club member/friend had a Maxxis "ST" tire come apart on the way back from our Rockport rally yesterday, and we stopped to help change the tire.

It was the typical "ST" tire failure, it was four years old, the remainder of the tread we found stuck between the brake backing plate and the axle had more than sufficient tread depth. Other than that small portion of tread, all that remained of the tire was the beads, and small portions of the side wall. He was fortunate the only damage to the trailer was the wheel well molding and the area of the belly pan and banana wrap directly behind the curb side tire.

Interesting observation was the remaining tire on that side of the trailer also showed some tread separation starting, and the spare had even more. He decided to continue on at 50 MPH since it was Sunday, and he made it home (100 miles) with no additional failures. This tells me that if a close inspection is done frequently of the tread on these tires, potential failures might be caught before doing so much damage.

Tiss a sad thing to have to crawl around under your trailer every time you stop because of S T tires ! But unfortunately this seems to be the only way to prevent these worthless tires from shredding your nice trailer.
It will never happen but if everyone would stop buying these st junk tires and not taking delivery of new trailers unless the dealers replace them with decent LT tires , they would go away.

[Bruce B]

OK,
I guess I am about to join the "ex Marathon" crowd.

This week I brought my Airstream to my shop for a little bearing maintenance. While the wheels were off I decided to give the tires a spin on the Hunter RoadForce balancer to see how they were doing. They appeared to be just fine with no outward signs of trouble. They have always held air pressure and I have had no bad moments that I recall in 12,000+ miles of towing.

I started with the replacement, the right side tire. It was in perfect balance and had something like 6 lbs of RoadForce. Low RoadForce numbers mean that the assembly is round. That tire is perfect!

I then ran the left side tire on the machine. Not so good! It was severely out of balance and it was generating RoadForce numbers as high as I have ever seen. It is clearly no longer round. It certainly looks round while spinning on the balancer and there are no visible indications of any problems but the numbers tell the story.

I am too nervous to try Marathons again. I am done.

Anyone have experience with Michelin 235-75R 15 LTX M/S2 tires on a single axel Airstream?

Bruce

[dannydimitt]

Originally Posted by Bruce B

OK,
I guess I am about to join the "ex Marathon" crowd.

This week I brought my Airstream to my shop for a little bearing maintenance. While the wheels were off I decided to give the tires a spin on the Hunter RoadForce balancer to see how they were doing. They appeared to be just fine with no outward signs of trouble. They have always held air pressure and I have had no bad moments that I recall in 12,000+ miles of towing.

I started with the replacement, the right side tire. It was in perfect balance and had something like 6 lbs of RoadForce. Low RoadForce numbers mean that the assembly is round. That tire is perfect!

I then ran the left side tire on the machine. Not so good! It was severely out of balance and it was generating RoadForce numbers as high as I have ever seen. It is clearly no longer round. It certainly looks round while spinning on the balancer and there are no visible indications of any problems but the numbers tell the story.

I am too nervous to try Marathons again. I am done.

Anyone have experience with Michelin 235-75R 15 LTX M/S2 tires on a single axel Airstream?

Bruce

Having never had a single axle Airstream I can only compare a 2007 single axle Casita that we had . I put P rated 235/75R15 Michelins on it and they performed flawlessly. The ride was much better than with trashy Marathons and we scooted across Texas and New Mexico in the July heat at 70 and 75 MPH with no problems.

We just got back from an 11,000 mile adventure across the United States and Canada to Alaska and back with our little 22 ft 2 axle Safari . I did not splurge for Michelins this time but put a set of Cooper 235/75R15s P rated tires on it .These were 60 bucks a pop at Discount tire, and I mounted and balanced them myself.
On this trip we encountered just about every road condition and surface that there is on this planet. As well as making a great many tight U-turns on paved and gravel surfaces "side drag on the trailer tires" and again scooting across Texas in the August heat at 70 plus MPH, these low cost Non ST tires performed just as well as the Michelins. No flats , no problems whatsoever .
I had previously "back when the speed limit was 55 " run a set of the cheapest 235/75R15 inch general tires that Sams club sold then for about 35 bucks a piece on my 66 24 ft Land Yacht with exactly the same results. No problem whatsoever .
I will say that it will be a cold day in hell before I will ever have anything to do with ANY way overpriced ST junk tire , except maybe on an implement , "plow or disc" pulled behind my very low speed tractor.

Any 235/75R15 you put on your nice single axle airstream besides a junk ST tire will be a huge improvement in my book
Regards
Danny R Dimitt

[CapriRacer]

Originally Posted by Bruce B

OK,
I guess I am about to join the "ex Marathon" crowd....... It was severely out of balance and it was generating RoadForce numbers as high as I have ever seen. It is clearly no longer round.......Bruce

Bruce,

How high were the values? And what were they BEFORE - you know, new?

Just an FYI, LT tires can have some pretty high values even when brand new.

And just another FYI, I'm going to guess that Goodyear doesn't screen out high uniformity values for their ST tires - unlike their LT tires.

Plus, how do you know it was the tire and not the wheel?

And last thought: since both the balance AND the road force were out, I don't think we can eliminate irregular wear from the picture. Put another way, it's possible you have a slight alignment problem that is wearing the tire irregularly and that is causing both the out of balance and "out of round" condition.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying there isn't a problem, and I'm not saying going to the P metric tires is bad. I'm saying that with the info you provided, it MIGHT not be a tire separating. It could be other things that replacing the tires won't fix.

Recommendations: Be sure to measure the wheel(s) when you have the tires off. There's a "Measure bare wheel" procedure programed into the Hunter GSP9700.

[Bruce B]

Lets see
Roadforce on the right tore was under 10 lbs 12,000 moles ago. It is now in excess of 80 lbs!

The tire appears fine to the eye, even during the spin phase of the measurement. You really can not detect any problem visually.

I checked the rims for run out and they are very straight.

Whatever is making the tire "not round" is only happening under load.

I even reduced tire pressure to see what impact the 60 lb pressure had on the number. At 35 lbs the number was still in the high 40's. I am certain it is a failing tire....

Bruce

[ROBERT CROSS]

A note from my un-informed knuckle busting daze....

Will not a weak shock cause internal tire damage?

Bob

[Bruce B]

Bob,
How about no shocks at all?
The single axel Airstreams have no shocks installed at all!
Dexter Axel says that the rubber in the axel tube is more than sufficient to dampen any motion and although I wonder about this I have never known the trailer to "bounce" the way a car will with bad shocks.

I do not discount that something external may have damaged the tire, only that there is no evidence of any impact. Too the tire is on the left side of the trailer and I would hazard a guess that this is the less likely side to be damaged (hey it is simply a guess!).

I wanted to defend the Marathons. One had very high numbers when brand new, this one waited until 12,000 miles before having any issues.
The tires have never been driven even a few pounds below the recommended 65 lbs and they were in balance until just recently. They were simply fine. I understand that a lot of people will never have any issues with this tire. I also do not want to worry about failure. I will try an LT tire and see how it goes.
I will say that "in general" Michelin tires are very fine tires and they should give me peace of mind.

The final question is whether or not to switch to the 16" rims and tires or simply go with the 15" Michelins that are at or slightly over their load rating.....I really like my "Alcoa" style rims. Oh the vanity!

Bruce

[ROBERT CROSS]

Holy Bovine....even our 63 Safari had shocks.

AFAIC...tire choice on a single axle can be a little problematic.

You need a tire that will carry the load, you want a tire with a stiffer sidewall to resist the inherent tendency for single axle sway.
My final solution for the 63,(22yrs ago)....bias ply D rated ST tires, with dual friction control slide bars. Worked very well for 15 Seasons.
If I had a single axle today...most likely the 15" Michelin's with a Reese Straight line.

Bob

[Tireman9]

Originally Posted by Bruce B

Bob,
How about no shocks at all?
The single axel Airstreams have no shocks installed at all!
Dexter Axel says that the rubber in the axel tube is more than sufficient to dampen any motion and although I wonder about this I have never known the trailer to "bounce" the way a car will with bad shocks.

I do not discount that something external may have damaged the tire, only that there is no evidence of any impact. Too the tire is on the left side of the trailer and I would hazard a guess that this is the less likely side to be damaged (hey it is simply a guess!).

I wanted to defend the Marathons. One had very high numbers when brand new, this one waited until 12,000 miles before having any issues.
The tires have never been driven even a few pounds below the recommended 65 lbs and they were in balance until just recently. They were simply fine. I understand that a lot of people will never have any issues with this tire. I also do not want to worry about failure. I will try an LT tire and see how it goes.
I will say that "in general" Michelin tires are very fine tires and they should give me peace of mind.

The final question is whether or not to switch to the 16" rims and tires or simply go with the 15" Michelins that are at or slightly over their load rating.....I really like my "Alcoa" style rims. Oh the vanity!

Bruce

No shocks on the trailer means you are asking the tires to do the job of converting motion (bounce) to heat. This means your tires are going to run hotter. Heat is the #1 enemy of tire longevity.

[Bruce B]

So,
Just saying I wanted to find a way to mount shocks. Do I begin by calling Dexter and seeing if they have the parts and shocks I might want?
All in the quest of a perfect Bambi......
Bruce

[SteveSueMac]

Bruce - what's the weight of your trailer fully loaded? I think those Michelins - discounted for trailer use - come in around 1945# each (2140/1.1) so 3890# would be your trailer weight max for those tires. Caveat - I'm not a tire guy....