NITROGEN versus "AIR" in your Trailer Tires

[Action]

I pick air. I get my tires at Discount, since Arizona is the home of Discount tire I am loyal to a local business.

In all fairness the air in Phoenix is relatively dry. I never use some one else's compressor to fill mounted tires and I have owned my TV for 18 years and the inside of the rim has far less corrosion than the outside of rims. (I trailer boat as well and the rear wheels get dunked.)

On edit I have 9 cars and trucks, 2 trailers and 4 motorcycles all with shop air in the tires.(don't ask me to ad up the number of tires and wheels) All vehicles are over 25 years of age except 3 vehicles and both trailers, the insides of all of the rims are very clean and smooth.

>>>>>>Action

[CapriRacer]

A couple of stray thoughts on nitrogen:

1) Yes, oxygen is a corrosive, but how many tires and wheels have you seen that are so corroded that they can not be used.

2) Don't forget that even if you start off with 100% nitrogen in the air chamber, oxygen will leak in through the tire (in much the same way the nitrogen will leak out.) The principal is called "The Partial Pressure of Gases Law".

3) It is a myth that nitrogen and air behave differently due to temperature. EVERYTHING I have seen says otherwise. (OK, for accuracy's sake, they behave ever so slightly differently, but not enough to make a difference!)

[m.hony]

I thought the nitrogen fad had already passed. Our new Toyota has air in the tires. All of my vehicles have air in the tires. I thought there was an upcharge (which I am too cheap to pay) to fill with nitrogen.

[jadatis]

I turned it around and state that filling with normal air is even better then with Nitrogen.
Try to de-mith this.

A. Oxygen, which makes 21% of normal outside air, in volume absorbs more energy to rise a degree in temperature then Nitrogen.
Difference is only 1% , but in selling argument is sometimes mentioned in energy/ mass so Joule/kg.degr. Kelvin and there Nitrogen wins by 13 % . Tires though are filled with a certain volume so that counts .
This selling argument can be de-myth simply by the fact that its untrue.

B. Water in a tire transports the heat more then dry air or Nitrogen-filling ( which is by its production process free of water).
Not for no reason water is used in central heating and cooling system of cars as main substance.
The tire inside will have lower temperature which is better for cooling down the important spots of the tire wich have to keep a low enough temperature to prevent hardening and damage in next bending of those parts.
When incidentally the tire inside gets hotter ( sunshine on tire or severe braking, or high ambient temperature) more water goes over to gas wich highens the pressure inside the tire more then dry gas. Also then more water as gas in tire so even better cooling.
So advantage of water is 2 ways when needed, better cooling and lesser heat production.
Disadvantages of water as oxidation only happen at outside . Tire specialists will confirm that when they remove a tire of the rim , the rim inside the tire is not corroded.

C. When a Truck, transporting flammable substance, is on fire, the little oxygen in a tire will , when exploding ,probably even kill the fire .
In tunnels experiments where done to kill the fire with air current , and it worked, despite the oxygen in it.

D. A normal car tire up to truck tire is not a race-car tire, for which a constant as high as possible contact area, so best grip , is needed to give half a second better round time.
For that reason they are filled with as dry as possible air or Nitrogen.
That this gives low lifetime is not important, and for a normal car tire it is.
Often blowing tires at racing, is seen there as collateral damage, but we don’t want that for normal car tires.

E. A car tire is also not a airplane- tire in which the water can freeze and when landing this can give misbalance , which can lead to tire-failure or accident, when suddenly going from zero to about 200m/h.
The water in a car tire does not freeze that often, and when it does and the car begins do drive , it begins slow and the misbalance is not a big problem . then pretty soon, certainly when on speed the ice is melted to water and problem will be gone.

F. When filled with normal air the user is aware of checking the tires regularly, which takes better care of a saver tire, because regularly filled up to the right pressure and optical checking of the tire .
The illusion that Nitrogen filling makes the tire to loose almost no pressure, which is often exaggerated to 5 times , while in real a poor 2 times and then only in the very beginning, makes the user less caring .
The tire also looses air when hitting pavement so temporary leak between edge of tire and rim, Filling with whatever gas-combination won’t prevent that.
This idea is even stronger when TMPS is used which is often inaccurate , so the user thinks to maintain the right pressure, while really riding with to low pressure for longer time, which can lead to tire damage. Aftermarket sensors for TMPS when screwed on the valve can give leakage trough hole where valve is placed , because of the bending of the valve by centrifugal forces at speed.

G. Filling with normal air is always possible, even with a bicycle- pump, is only to fill up so won’t take that long. When you keep driving with to low pressure , in order to find a place to fill with Nitrogen, you damage your tires. So just fill up with normal outside air, even when the tire is filled with Nitrogen. Then also you don’t need to have the tire refilled with pure Nitrogen by your tire specialist when at home again, not worth the trouble, and normal air is even better then nitrogen because of the water in it.

[Tireman9]

Originally Posted by Nuvite-F

The folks selling nitrogen inflation claim that nitrogen molecules are bigger than oxygen molecules and therefore leak out more slowly.

The trouble is, that just ain't true.

When this "nitrogen versus air" thing first came up years ago I consulted my trusty CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics and discovered that the atomic radii of oxygen and nitrogen were virtually identical. Just now I looked at Wikipedia and found that it has an excellent article on molecular size of gases:

Van der Waals radius - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Here are the pertinent numbers:

Atomic radius of oxygen is 1.52 Angstrom units
Atomic radius of nitrogen is 1.55 Angstrom units

Not a lot of difference there.

Both oxygen (O2) and nitrogen (N2) are diatomic molecules, so the internuclear distance also comes into play. From the same Wikipedia article,

Internuclear distance for O2 is 1.208 Angstrom units
Internuclear distance for N2 is 1.0975 Angstrom units

In other words, an O2 molecule is slightly bigger than an N2 molecule.

And of course, air is 80% nitrogen to begin with.

So you can argue about nitrogen versus air inflation to your heart's content, but forget the idea that nitrogen leaks slower because the molecules are bigger. They're not.

Gee there you go spoiling all the fun by presenting Scientific facts rather than sales propaganda mixed with half truths and a dash of "Old Wives tales".

As a tire engineer I can vouch for some theoretical benefits of the long tern use of N2 as an inflation gas for tires. There are two major problems with this concept. One is that N2 is not readily available at low enough cost with some dealers charging $10 a tire. There is something called Cost benefit analysis and IMO I would put that at a cost of no more than $0.50 per tire fill-up or $0.10 per pressure top off. The second and more important is that as a group I bet that fewer than 10% of those supporting the use of N2 don't know the actual load on each of their tires or the correct cold inflation pressure and even if they do know the proper inflation I bet they haven't checked the accuracy of their hand held pressure gauge against a certified pressure gauge and use one that is +/- 1.0 psi from an ISO standard gauge.


On my RVTireSafety blog I have a post about the "Magic" that will happen when you inflate your tires with N2.

[Action]

Originally Posted by Tireman9

One is that N2 is not readily available at low enough cost with some dealers charging $10 a tire. There is something called Cost benefit analysis and IMO I would put that at a cost of no more than $0.50 per tire fill-up or $0.10 per pressure top off.

As a non-tire expert or even as a ignorant tire consumer however one that does not have a lot of extra bucks or extra time, I have always thought the N2 thing was just a waste for my situation. Not only for my RV tires, also for my vehicles. (And I have a few, my wife would like a few less) The convience of checking and inflating daily drivers at home before the vehicle has moved would be altered if I used N2. And for my RV tires it means moving them to a station that would charge an additional fee (no matter how small) when they are open it becomes a hassle for what benefit?
So the RV tires in my situiation that see 5000 a year at most get to last how much longer?

In the consumer desire and retail/manufacturer to build the vehicle that meets the defination of set it and forget it I believe is folly. And I live in a unique area where outside temps range from 115 to about 40. Not checking and topping off tire pressure if needed at least on a monthly basis is not something I would consider for a driver or a RV. All of the machines are complex (as compared to 50 years ago) and require in my opinon maintence. Even if that maintence is just to inspect. Filling my tires with N2 is just another layer of hassle and cost that provdes very little if any benefit to me the consumer.

The .10 a tire top off quoted above does not include my labor. Especially on a travel trailer. As it is far easier to top off at my home when I don't have to move a vehicle. Heck I spend more than a dime in fuel for the TV just driving off of the street into the tire shop to get air.

My tire dealer offers free air check and top off any time desired. (And when they are open) In my commute to work 5 days a week I drive by there twice a day. which is 10 opportunities to stop in and get tires checked and aired up each week for about 40 to 50 weeks a year. I have stopped there about twice for only that purpose in my 20 years of buying tires there. It just doesn't work for me.

N2 may give some one peace of mind. It does little for me and I bet the vast majority of tire consumers have the same opinion.

>>>>>>>>>>Action

[leedav]

I say hooey. PV=nRT for any gas, nitrogen, water vapor, CO2 whatever. This is the same claptrap as gold speaker wires from Monster Cable. Even more laughable is digital HDMI cables.

[leedav]

Gold I meant

[Ray Eklund]

Old Wife Ray Eklund.

Had to add "Fresh Air" into our Goodyear tires that came with the Airstream before leaving on this last trip. Again.

Tow vehicle with Nitrogen filled tires were fine and needed no attention before leaving.

Old Wive's Tales probably circulate about using water filters when adding water to your fresh water tank when traveling and preferring inline filtered cold water in the trailer as removing additional solids and dissolved "whatevers".

When I need to replace my trailer's tires, I will buy them through Costco and then keep track of "not needing to maintain pressure" by adding Nitrogen. Thinking about it... sorta, Costco might have discovered that customer's never check tire pressures anyways, so it saved them money by using No Maintenance Nitrogen to their tire business for under inflated tire damage and replacement.

I would not be surprised that the new owners of our 2006 Airstream with Costco Nitrogen filled tires have not had to add anything but... wear onto the tread.

[Ag&Au]

I fill my all my tires with helium. It is an inert gas and cannot therefore participate in any spontaneous combustion incident. Since it is much lighter than either air or pure nitrogen, I can carry a much heavier load in the vehicle and trailer. To me it is even more a no-brainer than nitrogen and makes even more sense to use. I am currently doing research to try to find out what gases were used in the landing gear of the UFO that crashed in Roswell. Does anyone here have a key to the gate at area 51?

Ken

PS back in the 1950's I made a point of purchasing as much of the helium produced by hydrogen bomb testing as I could acquire. I now have a life time supply and my tires glow and produce a pleasant ambiance in the camp site.

[Action]

If it crashed, due you want that technology?

>>>>>>>>Action

[Ag&Au]

Originally Posted by Action

If it crashed, due you want that technology?

>>>>>>>>Action

It is my understanding that the landing gear and crew is all that survived intact. The occupants were wearing suits filled with same gas and currently are living in a retirement complex in the Miami area and expected to outlive the state of Florida.

[Tireman9]

Originally Posted by Ray Eklund

Old Wife Ray Eklund.

Had to add "Fresh Air" into our Goodyear tires that came with the Airstream before leaving on this last trip. Again.

Tow vehicle with Nitrogen filled tires were fine and needed no attention before leaving.

Old Wive's Tales probably circulate about using water filters when adding water to your fresh water tank when traveling and preferring inline filtered cold water in the trailer as removing additional solids and dissolved "whatevers".

When I need to replace my trailer's tires, I will buy them through Costco and then keep track of "not needing to maintain pressure" by adding Nitrogen. Thinking about it... sorta, Costco might have discovered that customer's never check tire pressures anyways, so it saved them money by using No Maintenance Nitrogen to their tire business for under inflated tire damage and replacement.

I would not be surprised that the new owners of our 2006 Airstream with Costco Nitrogen filled tires have not had to add anything but... wear onto the tread.

Wonder if you have checked to see where the "sir" is going. How much air is leaking out? Most tubeless tires when properly seated on non-corroded wheels loose from 1% to 3% a month. If you are loosing faster than that then I wouls suspect leaking valve core, valve to wheele interface or at the tire wheel interface. The tire wheel situation is not abnormal as the mounting soap can corrode the wheel allowing slow leak there. Here is what 10% to 20% a month can looks like on a passenger tire. The fix was to dismount the tire, remove corrosion, paint the inside of the wheel. After that the tire held air per normal.

[Ray Eklund]

[QUOTE=Tireman9;1640168]Wonder if you have checked to see where the "sir" is going. How much air is leaking out?
******
Probably 5 to 7 psi since parked from February. New tires, new trailer, new wheels. Not excessive, but had to do all four tires on the trailer and all within the same range. Next time I will note exact psi changes. I fill them to 60psi.

My Michelin AT2 Load Range E on the Pickup had no change at cold psi.

Wow... some foamer. Around here the small work trailer that are pulled behind a lawn tractor get flats from prickly pair quills or can go soft over the winter. Maybe the thicker and better built a tire, the less leakage and tire problems.

Obviously you are the guy to ask. Are you the Michelin Tire Man that I see on television?

[Ray Eklund]

Originally Posted by Ag&Au

It is my understanding that the landing gear and crew is all that survived intact. The occupants were wearing suits filled with same gas and currently are living in a retirement complex in the Miami area and expected to outlive the state of Florida.

*****

Wouldn't Helium help the tires run quieter on a paved surface? It would raise the pitch so high that my ears would not pick it up.

Miami... they still use hot air to fill everything, including footballs and cream cheese.

[Tireman9]

[QUOTE=Ray Eklund;1640175]

Originally Posted by Tireman9

Wonder if you have checked to see where the "sir" is going. How much air is leaking out?
******
Probably 5 to 7 psi since parked from February. New tires, new trailer, new wheels. Not excessive, but had to do all four tires on the trailer and all within the same range. Next time I will note exact psi changes. I fill them to 60psi.

My Michelin AT2 Load Range E on the Pickup had no change at cold psi.

Wow... some foamer. Around here the small work trailer that are pulled behind a lawn tractor get flats from prickly pair quills or can go soft over the winter. Maybe the thicker and better built a tire, the less leakage and tire problems.

Obviously you are the guy to ask. Are you the Michelin Tire Man that I see on television?

Nope not an actor on TV, just a retired tire engineer and RV owner.

1 psi a month on a 60 psi tire is 1/2% which is good and better than the requirement from "Detroit"

re "thicker and better built tire" seems logical but the reality is that all the different rubber compounds in a tire leak air with the exception the the Butyl based compounds. This is the special type rubber used in tubes and is on the inside of the tire but in "tubeless" tires is cured to the rest of the tire. Even Butyl can leak but much slower.

RE measuring air loss. I trust you will be using a digital gauge that reads to 0.5 psi or 0.01 psi and adjusting for both temperature and barometric pressure. When we test we attach a gauge permanently to the valve as just the act of checking air can affect the test results.

[CapriRacer]

Originally Posted by Ray Eklund

..... Are you the Michelin Tire Man that I see on television?

He has put on a few pounds since he retired, but does he look that bad?

[Tireman9]

Originally Posted by CapriRacer

He has put on a few pounds since he retired, but does he look that bad?

One reason I quit racing. Extra weight slowed the car down.

[Ray Eklund]

My Safari Racing Airstream's Goodyear tires ALL check out for tire pressure from our last trip.

No tire lost any pressure with good old fashioned air while parked in our garage.

[EarlM]

Well with nitrogen from Penna to Florida for th winter and back never need to air tires. heck and ok

it appears that some folks that don't want to pay for nitrogen are the same folks that don't like paying camping fees????

I like the nitrogen

Earl