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Old 07-28-2014, 12:57 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by jadatis View Post
Tires are not that rigid as window glass , so the tire yust has higher pressure then wich it can stand easyly.

Would the same problemm be if the low-E window was filled with any kind of gas?
Just like window seals, tires are made of rubber or ersatz rubber, so, absent any kind of logic, argon will leak. You can run a wire from the electric brakes to the argon and it will glow violet, so you can see it leaking when you step on the brakes. It is important you not think this through, because if you do, you will get a different and perhaps correct answer.

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Old 07-28-2014, 02:28 PM   #72
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Then again does Argon leak because its Argon , and dont Nitrogen or Oxigen or whatever other gas leak in the same conditions.

So would this be a reason not to fill your tires with Argon.
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Old 07-28-2014, 02:44 PM   #73
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Perhaps the answer is here: "Avogadro's law states that, 'equal volumes of all gases, at the same temperature and pressure, have the same number of molecules'".

I don't know what this really means, but it sounds cool. Avogadro's is also the name of a pizza place in Ft. Collins, Colorado, but that has nothing to do with tires. In fact, a lot of the posts on this thread have little to do with anything.

I have a tank with some helium in it, left over from filling balloons. Other than breathing it in so I can have a squeaky voice, I have no need for it. So maybe I'll fill my tires with it and lighten the load.

Jadatis, despite the language differences, you may have noticed by now I'm making things up as I write. Anyone with a photo of Marilyn Monroe in a potato sack as his simulacrum cannot be trusted.

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Old 07-28-2014, 02:53 PM   #74
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I have both Nitrogen and Air in my tires...think I'll have another Canadian whisky on the rocks and ponder these questions while watching the sun go down....
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Old 07-29-2014, 03:12 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by Gene View Post
Perhaps the answer is here: "Avogadro's law states that, 'equal volumes of all gases, at the same temperature and pressure, have the same number of molecules'".

I don't know what this really means, but it sounds cool. Avogadro's is also the name of a pizza place in Ft. Collins, Colorado, but that has nothing to do with tires. In fact, a lot of the posts on this thread have little to do with anything.

I have a tank with some helium in it, left over from filling balloons. Other than breathing it in so I can have a squeaky voice, I have no need for it. So maybe I'll fill my tires with it and lighten the load.

Jadatis, despite the language differences, you may have noticed by now I'm making things up as I write. Anyone with a photo of Marilyn Monroe in a potato sack as his simulacrum cannot be trusted.

Gene
I suspected it , but because of the language difference , first tougth it was a serious subject.
But again, if in a few years Argon filling instead of Nitrogen filling is done for tires , then remember I was the first who suggested it seriously.
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Old 07-29-2014, 08:18 AM   #76
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If she is a she would her nickname rather be "Ska"

But In my last ( and first) post in this topic, I mentioned that the difusion rate in my test, could simply be determined by deviding the pressure losses , but that is not true.
Have found a way to calculate it thoug, so my test can be done still.
Tried it out that calculation and if for instance 100% N2 filling to empty tire looses 10% and 100 O2 filling 50% in that same time, it calculates not 5 times, but 6 to 7 times that O2 diffuses quicker then N2.

If in a few years Nitrogen is replaced by Argon, then remember it was my idea.
Argon though is a "heavy gas", also used in Air-bags, light bulbs.
So it would make the vehicle a bit heavyer wich we cant use ( about max 1lbs) so this would give Helium an advantage wich makes the vehicle about 2 lbs lighter.
There's a little problem with Argon. Argon has an incredible insulation property. That's why they use it in windows too. When I drysuit dive in the winter, I fill my drysuit space with Argon gas. It is so insulating from the cold water, it feels like I just peed in the suit. It reflects my body back onto me and makes winter diving very enjoyable. I can imagine that the heat insulation if the tire was filled with Argon would be incredible. It's amazing how just a few extra electron, protons, and neutrons can make such a difference! Steve.
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Old 07-29-2014, 09:11 AM   #77
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I continue to hear that the Navy uses Nitrogen in their jet tires. There are all sorts of reasons to do this and I won't disagree. When I get to the point where I can do a carrier landing from 30K ft in my Airstream, I might seriously look into this.
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Old 07-29-2014, 09:14 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by gypsydad View Post
I have both Nitrogen and Air in my tires...think I'll have another Canadian whisky on the rocks and ponder these questions while watching the sun go down....
If you have both air & n2 in same tire n2 is useless as it is contaminated.
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Old 07-30-2014, 02:39 AM   #79
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There's a little problem with Argon. Argon has an incredible insulation property. That's why they use it in windows too. When I drysuit dive in the winter, I fill my drysuit space with Argon gas. It is so insulating from the cold water, it feels like I just peed in the suit. It reflects my body back onto me and makes winter diving very enjoyable. I can imagine that the heat insulation if the tire was filled with Argon would be incredible. It's amazing how just a few extra electron, protons, and neutrons can make such a difference! Steve.
There you have a point, searched it and found 15 Joule/mol/degr Kelvin, and Air about 20 J/m/dgrK so thats a substantial difference. Then it was for as is needed in tires when vollume stays constant.
And the transportation of heat inside the tire would better be more then less, to cool down the rubber at higher speed.

Still trying to find out how much energy water needs to go from liquid to gas, but dont think it will compensate that loss with Argon.
Would get a complex mix of Argon and liquid water and a basis of normal air , so I think we have to forget Argon.
Would mean that your tires stay at constant pressure ( cold) for years , but your tires get damaged because sertain spots ( or rings) get damaged by the heat they produce and ar not cooled down enaugh.
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Old 07-30-2014, 06:20 AM   #80
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There you have a point, searched it and found 15 Joule/mol/degr Kelvin, and Air about 20 J/m/dgrK so thats a substantial difference. Then it was for as is needed in tires when vollume stays constant.......
You will want to be careful here. The specific heat capacity of a gas changes how RAPIDLY the temperature builds up, not what temperature the gas eventually gets to. This difference might be useful for situations where speeding up or slowing down the temperature change is advantageous ((like a Formula 1 race), but in street tires, it hardly matters. Whether it take 45 minutes or an hour to reach a stable temperature, it still reaches the same stable temperature.
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Old 07-30-2014, 09:33 AM   #81
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@ CapriRacer

That is the conclusion I also have always taken, that in the long run any tire inside gascompound gets the same temperature , but now I am not that shure of it anymore.

What is important for the tire is that sertain spots ( or rings ) that produce the most energy by bending of the rubber, are cooled down enaug so they dont reach to high temperature and harden so crack at later bendings.

That energy is the same for a sertain deflection, but the transportation of that energy to the outside of the tire needs to be as quickly as possible.
The only spots where the gas can give it energy trough to the outside is the rimm and the thinner parts of the tire , where isolation is less.

Then it can happen that a gas has the same temperature then another gas , but the important spots or rings of the tire have higher temperature with the gas that transports the energy less ( fi Argon in compare to Air).
Probably because the temperature difference between gas in tire and those rings is then more , the gas ( Argon ) also has a bit higher temperature then other gas ( fi Nitrogen) . I asume the gas inside tire to have a temperature in the middle of that of the hottest rubber part and the outside tire temperature.

That is why I am trying to figure out how it works with a little liquid water in tire, wich is an ideal transporter of heat. Think of your central heating and sweating. When it goes over from liquid to gas it also absorbes energy.
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