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Old 04-12-2011, 12:11 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Jammer
I'm not going to believe that it makes the tires run cooler without hard evidence.
I don't have the data or the intelligence to prove or disprove that ... but wouldn't you generally agree that larger molecules help to hold proper tire pressure and that properly inflated tires run cooler than under inflated tires?
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Old 04-12-2011, 12:23 PM   #44
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Ken

..............................................


HYDROGEN-Don't try this at home The flammability limits (4-75% of hydrogen in air at normal temperature, wider at high temperatures[12]), its autoignition temperature at 571C, its very low minimum ignition energy, and its tendency to form explosive mixtures with air, require provisions to be made for maintaining the hydrogen content within the generator above the upper or below the flammability limit at all times, and other hydrogen safety measures. When filled with hydrogen, overpressure has to be maintained as inlet of air into the generator could cause a dangerous explosion in confined space. The generator enclosure is purged before opening it for maintenance, and before refilling the generator with hydrogen. During shutdown, hydrogen is purged by an inert gas, then the inert gas is replaced by air; the opposite sequence is used before startup. Carbon dioxide or nitrogen can be used for this purpose, as they do not form combustible mixtures with hydrogen and are inexpensive. Gas purity sensors are used to indicate the end of the purging cycle, which shortens the startup and shutdown times and reduces consumption of the purging gas. Carbon dioxide is favored as due to very high density difference it is easily displaced by hydrogen.

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Shucks, I don't do any of this scientific safety stuff.

I did put up a no smoking sign though. That was mainly because I don't like the smell of tobacky.

I also have mattresses on the ground around the work area, so that I will have a soft landing if it all goes up.

Remember: safety is next to cleanliness (I don't much go for that either though)

Ken
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Old 04-12-2011, 03:52 PM   #45
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Where did you see that, Wayne&Sam? The two links I just read were commercials for companies selling equipment to put nitrogen into tires. All I saw there was their opinion.

Or did I miss something?
I wasn't fast enough and I usually don't use emoticons when I should. I was referring to w7ts and the hydrogen idea.
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Old 04-12-2011, 03:55 PM   #46
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Measure the temperature and you will see a difference, as we have done.

Andy
That's what I was hoping Andy would post.
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Old 04-12-2011, 04:23 PM   #47
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I wasn't fast enough and I usually don't use emoticons when I should. I was referring to w7ts and the hydrogen idea.
Actually, when I first read your reply it was immediately after w7ts'. Later I came back and Andy's posts were between yours and w7ts', leaving yours out of context.

It's not the first time I've seen posts appear later between ones that were already there.
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Old 04-12-2011, 05:05 PM   #48
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I can see going to a rally and someone bringing a commercial bottle or nitrogen and having a cool air party and just charging for the expenses possibly being in the future.
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Old 04-13-2011, 10:52 AM   #49
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What I gathered from Andy's two links is that because nitrogen is found in its larger N2 molecule form it will leak from the tires much more slowly. It is the maintenance of proper tire pressure that makes tires run cooler, not any magical property of one gas over another.

So - check your tire pressures regularly and gain the same benefit as pure N2.

Pat
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Old 04-13-2011, 12:35 PM   #50
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... but wouldn't you generally agree that larger molecules help to hold proper tire pressure and that properly inflated tires run cooler than under inflated tires?
The molecular diameter of nitrogen, oxygen, and carbon dioxide are about the same, all around 4 Angstroms, depending on how they are measured. The mixture of gasses doesn't change much as a result of leakage.

Besides, if only the oxygen leaked out, you would rapidly end up with a 95%+ nitrogen-filled tire after topping off the air once or twice.
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Old 04-13-2011, 01:23 PM   #51
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i figure that the more my tires leak oxygen the more nitrogen i have in them ;-)

i'm starting a nitrogen filling service. come to me and i'll fill your tires with nitrogen. the $29.99 per tire will automatically be billed monthly to your credit card ;-)

now who is going to go around to verify that you're actually getting what you're paying for. come and get your green valve caps right here.

will warranties also include refilling the nitrogen?

gee, if only they'd build tires that held air!
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Old 04-13-2011, 07:45 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Jammer

The molecular diameter of nitrogen, oxygen, and carbon dioxide are about the same, all around 4 Angstroms, depending on how they are measured.
Ok, now you are officially talking way over my head! Regardless, I personally believe that Nitrogen holds pressure better based on personal experience. Also, I think Nitrogen leaking slower relates to "permeation" qualities that are greater than air (Yes, Nitrogen is relevantly "larger" than air when it comes to leaking through a tire) ... when I Google the subject I get pointed-headed stuff like this link to an explanation of Graham's Law (which makes my head hurt but supports my assertion) http://www.getnitrogen.org/pdf/graham.pdf

Jammer, thanks for all the dialogue ... I find it fun to explore these topics!
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Old 04-13-2011, 08:41 PM   #53
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So - check your tire pressures regularly if n2 or air and gain benefit.
Fixed ...and I'll just change my tires every year or three like I always have and not worry about oxidation, condensation, etc.

I found the links lacking in any concrete information other than "tires properly inflated work better". Im disapponted that vendors push this bad science.
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Old 04-16-2011, 10:35 AM   #54
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The following is a definitive article on Nitrogen in tires......it appeared this morning in the RV Travel Newsletter, which is a free online publication each Sat.......enjoy!

RV Tire Safety: Inflate with Nitrogen and there will be MAGIC
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Old 04-16-2011, 12:59 PM   #55
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The following is a definitive article on Nitrogen in tires......it appeared this morning in the RV Travel Newsletter, which is a free online publication each Sat.......enjoy!

RV Tire Safety: Inflate with Nitrogen and there will be MAGIC
I think this article is spot on.

I am disappointed however that they did not do a side by side comparison with my hydrogen filled concept.

Ken
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Old 04-16-2011, 02:21 PM   #56
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We monitor our tire pressures each towing day. We read all four trailer tires before starting the drive and every half-hour or so during the drive. Our tires pressures increase by 5-8 psi from 60 psi starting. We don't need to improve on this condition, it's working just as expected.

Yeah, our tires pressures vary with ambient temperature. So what? We have a compressor, a gauge, and tpms. If the cold starting pressure is below 55 we'll add air -- happens rarely to us. The cold starting pressure has never exceeded 65 in seven years.

It really doesn't seem to matter what or whether N2 does for our tires. We're only keeping them five to six years, we monitor them a whole lot better than most motorists even watch their own car tires. N2 for trailer tires is a solution looking for a problem.

I would like green caps, though. Maybe I can just swap with some sports car in the car park. Will they think someone took their N2 too?

Ken, wouldn't helium be almost as fun as H? Maybe easier to obtain, still lowers the total unit weight, plus you could have fun at campfires sucking it in and talking the duck voice.
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