Need New Tires for 19' Bambi_Maxxis?

[DoggerStream]

Hi there:

I am in the market for new tires for our 2005 19' International CCD Bambi. Someone at a recent Rally mentioned that Maxxis were the best tires to get for travel trailers. However in some of the threads, I am reading Michelins are popular.

I am an Bridgestone AT Revo fan for my 2003 Toyota 4Runner but when it comes to tires for my beloved Airstream, I am clueless.

Also, it sounds like 16s are better than 15s. We have a lot of missing rivets on the interior .... I would love any input...

Thank you in advance,
Laurie F.
Ventura, CA

[Andrew T]

Hi Laurie

You can run Michelin P235/75R x 15" XL (extra load) LTX tires on the 19'. We have installed them on most of the 19's we have delivered and they work very well. The ride is dramatically smoother on the single axle. Should solve your rivet issue. Run these at 50PSI.

The 16" tire is a 225/75R x 16" Load Range E Michelin. It will also work but it will ride much firmer than the 15" tire. It does have more load capacity which would only be an issue if you have added considerable weight in modifications, extra batteries etc.

Andrew T

[markdoane]

I run Maxxis and I'm happy with them.

BUT. . .

My single axle Tradewind needs the extra load and those were the only ones in 15" that have the load capacity.

On a Bambi I would follow the expert's advice. See #2.

[Johnco]

I went with the 16's a couple of years back. Prior to the change I was popping rivets as well. When I went with the 16's it forced me to revise the set up on my Equalizer. Turns out the dealer had set it up all wrong. The drive is totally different now and we no longer pop rivets. The tires were a great upgrade from a piece of mind standpoint, but the rivet popping was always the way the hitch was set up. Whichever way you decide (and you can't go wrong with Michelin) make sure you go through your hitch set up.

[DoggerStream]

Thank you for the replies regarding tires. I will look into Michelin.

With regard to the hitch hook up, what should I be aware of? I don't am not following why that would be an issue with losing the rivets.... As far as I know, there is only one way we connect the hitch (with sway bars). Our automatic jack broke a few years ago, so we have to manually connect the trailer to the hitch... I wonder if that is the problem...

[Tom_T]

Hi Laurie, we run Maxxis & love them!

Upon the recommendation of the AS restorer who did our PPI in 2012 who has owned & restored 100's of AS & other vintage kin "Silver Twinkies" - we've been running Maxxis 15" E rated on our 1960 Avion T20 (20'-6" L) single axle since July 2012, & will replace them with the Maxxis again in mid-2017, because they ride well, get great wear & little bounce on the trailer. Our Avion is about the same length, but a bit lighter than your "modern" AS, cuz they were all built with lighter but more expensive materials back in the day, than are the current AS line-up since about the 1990s.

The change-out for us will be due to age - any TT tire should be changed out every 5 years per the date code on their sidewalls - & some say regardless of how long they've actually been installed on your trailer, so make sure you get a recent dated set of tires - & not some old stock sitting on the shelves for a year or two or more!

The Maxxis STs are excellent tires .... period!

We like them so well, that I got a set of 5 of their LT tires for our 88 VW Westfalia camper van, since the OEM Michelins rated for it (8 PR, C or D Load) have been NLA for many years. They're a HUGE improvement over all of the other XL tires we've tried over the years!

So now for a few things in the above & in other threads which I'll challenge here though, which I'm sure will "bring the bats out of the belfry"!

1st - 15" or 16" tires will have NOTHING whatsoever to do with popping rivets at all, that's just urban myth. The tire/wheel size has nothing to do with the rivets popping, unless they are shortening the profile/sidewall height as noted below - & even then it's probably not the tires as the primary cause, as discussed in the 2nd section.

If anything, since the upsized tires/wheels generally would need to use lower profile tires with shorter sidewall heights in order to keep the same overall diameter as the "stock" wheel/tire combo in order to fit into the wheel wells properly + allow you to change them on the road - the 16" or any larger wheel/tires will offer LESS cushioning to the ride due to less sidewall height available to flex, than the OEM 15" in your case (this is not applicable if the tires are same profile - e.g.: 205/75R15 > 205/75R16, etc. since the sidewall heights are roughly the same).

Vehicles are designed with the tires as an integrral part of the suspension system & ride comfort, which is why cars/suvs/trucks with the big ole "wagon wheel" 20-22"+ wheels with ultra-low profile tires ride so rough - there jsut is not enough cushion there!

IMHO the primary reason people move to bigger tire sizes is for looks & tire availability (since tire mfgrs. follow the current car/truck styling trends for ever bigger wheels), whether in a trailer or powered vehicle.

But why go to the added expense of 3 new wheels (incl. spare) in addition to the tires in the first place!?

You'd be far better off to spend the extra money on fixing your rivet problem discussed below instead!


2nd - Regarding popped rivets - I'm sorry to say that you guys with new ASs that are popping rivets is either due to too much time on rough roads or off-road - or else it's just the lower quality control seen in the modern ASs in many areas, as obvious from all of the other posts on here about failures of stuff on their new AS trailers.

For those folks with rivets popping on old vintage kin - well the Silver Twinkie design is a semi-monocoque aircraft inspired design where the skin takes some of the stress/strain & adds to the stability of the structure of the trailer, while minimizing the required weight of the framing structure. So those skins & rivets are constantly moving ever so slightly as the skin & frame move & resist movement, & eventually the holes in the skins/frame & the rivets themselves just plain wear out & pop out.

So if you have popped rivets in either case - new, vintage or in between, either have AS fix the rivets if it's still under warranty, or go to a trailer repair shop to have them do it for you, or else go get yourself a rivet gun & the proper type of blind rivets for the interior, exterior or belly pan installation & do the work yourself.

Vintage Trailer Supply (see ads on here & click) sells them all, including a riveting kit with the drill-mounted Olympic rivet shaving tool to make the Olympic rounded top blind pop rivets look very close to the OE buck type rivets (that require access to both sides of the riveting, vs. blind or pop rivets - read their explanations at VTS website for more on rivets). Their exterior rivets are round-top or acorn like those on mast AS & kin, belly pan rivets have a larger flat head for the higher vibration area of the belly skins, & a smaller flat rivet as used on most aluminum skinned interior panels (they also have aluminum washers for where the rivet holes are enlarged a bit).

I got mine on sale before the holidays, & will be tackling our Avion's belly pan's missing rivets when I have time & dry weather before the next vintage trailer rally outing in March!


3rd - The difference in design between ST trailer tires & LT light truck tires, is that the STs are designed to reduce rolling resistance to make towing easier, with better TV mpg, stiffer sidewall design to resist side-to-side movement in sway control + to minimize heat built-up in the tires from flexing, & to carry the loads of trailers specifically.

Whereas LT tires are designed to do much of the opposite on a powered light truck van/pick-up/suv vehicle & TVs, where they need traction to put power to the road - not minimum rolling resistance, they want flexible sidewalls so that the tread patch is maintained in turns, & are designed to carry the loads + power application - but then since they flex more than STs they'll create more heat from flexing as they're designed to do.

This going to LT debate is IMHO mostly driven by folks using the cheaper ST tires on their trailers & having blowouts or other tire failures - rather than the ST just being a poorly designed tire itself - they're purpose engineered for trailers - LTs are not. It's also partly due to buyers wanting more tire options or a particular brand (e.g.: Firerock/Bridgerock, Badyear, Bubbleguy/Michi, etc. to use Fred Flintstone names to protect the innocent ).

Also, there are far more factors involved in over stressing tires than the maker or if they're ST - since heat is the enemy to tires & cause most blowouts. Here are a few:

If under-inflated, they'll flex too much & build up too much heat, risking blow-outs, tread separation or other tire failures.

Likewise if you're driving through the desert in 90-100+ heat, with pavement temps in the 150-200+ degrees - which is not good for tires, as evidenced by all the "Gators" on the Interstates from even heavier duty HT 18-wheeler tires!

There are also DOT formulas for down-rating tires' load ratings in certain cases, so you have to check that & make sure that it's rated for more than the rated axle weight - less the down-rate % - if this applies to your situation & trailer &/or TV tires.

Moreover, if you look at ST tires, they are rated for 65 mph - so if you're exceeding that speed consistently, then you're tempting fate. Auto XL & LT tires are rated for higher speeds, but NOT in a trailer application, so ditto there - they are NOT a "magic bullet" to tow at 70-80 mph!

Many states like CA limit cars/pick-ups/suv's to 55 mph while towing a trailer, while others allow 60 or 65 mph anyway - due to the many concerns & complications resulting at higher towing speeds. Such as much more tire & sidewall heat generated at higher speeds, much increased braking distances for a combined rig & those growing almost exponentially with speed, as well as increased sway & other handling problems, concerns with road debris, potholes, rough pavement & irregularities, etc., etc.

I've read at least a couple of the LT tire gurus whose ST problems were due to the above heat &/or speed issues, & it's only a matter of time before they also have them with their vaunted LT tires too - barring a change in the driving habits & checking equipment.

This latter is the most important thing you can do for tire safety & longevity. Check & fill your tire pressures to spec before every trip, & every 500-1000 miles or so on long trips. Also carefully check your tires sidewalls & treads for wear, cracking & other signs of impending doom before every trip & at every stop (EVERY), & if they're getting too hot on trips (hand to sidewall, but be prepared to pull away quickly if hot) - then plan an extended stop to let them cool down if it's a hot day, &/or slow down if you've been running at 75 mph + recheck the tire pressures, & by checking out the L & R side mirrors at those trailer tires to see if anything is amiss while towing (& this applies to the TV tires too).

Do not assume that your TPS system (tire pressure sensors) will tell you when you need air - they're only a fail-safe warning for impending doom on a towing trip, or in any driving. Prevent the problem with regular, often & pre-trip tire pressure checks on any & all vehicles - powered or not.

For me, I'd prefer to stick with a purpose built ST tire, follow proper tire safety procedures, & speed limits - & yes I do find my speed creeping up since we got the Hensley Cub which eliminates sway & vastly improves both trailer & TV handling, but I catch myself & slow it down.

This ST vs. LT debate is ongoing, with hardliners on both sides - but ultimately you have to do what you're comfortable with, & live with it, learn from it, then make the next decision based on your own experience, needs, preferences & budget.


Good Luck & Happy Trailering!
Tom
///////

[Tom_T]

PS - I don't see where nor how the hitch set-up would cause rivet popping, if they were riveting properly, & it's not an age & wear issue on an older trailer - as I discussed in my post above.

The rivets are going to pop in areas of the highest stresses & vibrations of the entire trailer structure - &/or where they were improperly installed &/or undersized or under-strength rivets were used - & once those have popped - the rivet popping will go away, regardless of tires, wheel size, hitch set-up, or anything else.

Those wheel & hitch factors & changes are most probably just coincidental with reaching the end of the "problem rivet spots" above, & in actuality was due to those other factors.

Laurie - also look at the Maxxis STs for your Bambi - aside from the Michelin advise above. Also, with a small Bambi, if you have a decent Equalizer/Blue Ox/etc. on up to a Hensley/Pro-Pride WD hitch with sway control, if you set it up according to the instructions & guidelines on websites like this & from the manufacturers - then you'll be fine & won't be causing rivets to pop.

You folks with rivet problems need to fix the rivet problems themselves, & not go hunting around for other issues. One loose factory rivet alone that was in correctly installed - or Joe at the factory grabbed a= the wrong underweight/under=spec rivet from his apron pocket - could cause several nearby rivets to pop out. So either the new warranty, or a good shop, or you need to replace those rivets & soon!

Fix the rivets ... & deal with the tires & hitches as their own issues folks!

Cheers!
Tom
///////

[xrvr]

Wow, I guess opinions vary!

[wrbaron]

great info, I also have a 2005 19 bambi, in need of tires. I looked at wheel wells and I don't believe you can fit a 16" tire in the well. I am thinking of maxis had them on another as and did several trips to Alaska no problems.
any opinions from the forum on the Carlisle brand and their new tire their advertisng makes some good points. thanks everyone and I did not mean to hijack thread just trying to participate

[switz]

Many folks on this forum with 19' Airstreams have installed the 16" SenDel T03-66655T wheels and Michelin LT 225/75R16E LTX M/S2 tires as sold at the factory service center in Ohio.

[markdoane]

Originally Posted by switz

Many folks on this forum with 19' Airstreams have installed the 16" SenDel T03-66655T wheels and Michelin LT 225/75R16E LTX M/S2 tires as sold at the factory service center in Ohio.

Agreed. But 16" wheels and tires will not fit inside all wheel wells.

[tjdonahoe]

St radials are made the same as p or Lt radial, look it up, the st has heavier cords ,so they have a heavier weight rating than p.and the st are china manufactured...

[Phoenix]

Many 19' Bambi owners have switched to 16" wheels and tires, as this model has a higher load per tire than most other Airstreams. Most of us tried other brands of 15" ST tires before switching. However, many found the reliability to be about the same as the GYM.

Note: Just my opinion, but the P235/75x15XL would be overloaded on later 19' Bambis, which weigh approximately 4,500 pounds. Even if 450 pounds is deducted for tongue weight, this is cutting it too close for me.

The photos in the link below show the differences in clearance between the 15" OEM GYMs and the 16" wheels and LT tires we put on our Bambi:

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f465...tml#post944334

As of this writing, our Michelin XPS Ribs are 5 years old and have about 35-40,000 miles on them, with absolutely no problems. (Tire and wheel details are included in above link.)

==========

Additional comment:

ST and LT tires are not made the same, as evidenced by their weight:

OEM GYM 225/75x15 ST = 31 pounds (2 steel belts)

Michelin LTX MS2 P235/75/15 XL = 32 pounds (2 steel belts)

Michelin LTX MS2 LT225/75x16 E = 38 pounds (3 steel belts)

Michelin XPS Rib LT225/75x16 E = 49 pounds (3 steel belts, plus sidewall = 1 ply steel)

[DoggerStream]

Thanks for this amazing amount of information.

We are at the 5 year period and that is why I was searching for new tires. With the rivets, I just figured this was just another example of poorly made *new* Airstream trailers. (We have lots of exterior skin problems, as well). This was the first I heard that it could be related to the quality of the 'ride'. At any rate, I am back to shopping for Maxxis. My husband thinks I should by the rivet gun but I'm thinking I should leave this up to an expert. Considering taking it to the AS dealer in Westminster....

[Tom_T]

Originally Posted by tjdonahoe

St radials are made the same as p or Lt radial, look it up, the st has heavier cords ,so they have a heavier weight rating than p.and the st are china manufactured...

Nope, the Avion's Maxxis STs & my 88 VW Van's LTs are both mfgd. in Indonesia, as are the Nexens on our 85 BMW 325e, & all are much better tires than the prior set of US made ones, or than the OE Michelins on both cars (we're original owners).

PS - Also TJ, I did look it up & extensively researched it with manufacturers & tire experts - STs, P, LT & many other types of tires today are purpose-built engineered/designed & made differently for the various applications. If this were not the case & all tires were made the same, then there would only be one tire made for all types of cars, trucks/suvs, trailers, snow/ice, all weather, racing, etc., etc. Your comment is just off base & incorrect, unless you're talking about tires from the early 1900s.

Very few tires are actually made in the USA anymore - nor in Germany or France or even Japan, unfortunately. Check where your Bridgestones are made on the tires - probably not Japan anymore.

Some folks have also had problems with the Goodyear Marathons ST, but again, that may be due to many other factors.

The Maxxis on our 20' Avion are M8008 ST225/75R/15 D Rated FYI of anyone looking at them .... I just checked them (Thanx Laurie ;-).

PS - Link here for all sizes of this Maxxis tire:
http://www.maxxis.com/catalog/tire-1...t-radial-m8008

Best!
Tom
///////

Cheers!
Tom
///////

[Tom_T]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

As of this writing, our Michelin XPS Ribs are 5 years old and have about 35-40,000 miles on them, with absolutely no problems.
==========

Additional comment:

ST and LT tires are not made the same, as evidenced by their weight:

OEM GYM 225/75x15 ST = 31 pounds (2 steel belts)

Michelin LTX MS2 P235/75/15 XL = 32 pounds (2 steel belts)

Michelin LTX MS2 LT225/75x16 E = 38 pounds (3 steel belts)

Michelin XPS Rib LT225/75x16 E = 49 pounds (3 steel belts, plus sidewall = 1 ply steel)

Your line about your Michi's which I italicized above is very misleading to the uninformed reading this forum.

Unless you're Superman with Xray vision, there is absolutely NO WAY anyone can know the INTERIOR condition of the rubber & belts INSIDE the tire sidewalls, mounting beads & tread sections!

That is why the pretty much universal recco is to change them at 5 years - regardless of how much tread is left.

The problem with age & use wear at 5 years, is that you can't see inside the rubber to tell whether nor how much they're degrading & disintegrating - even with great tread remaining.

Continue to run on over 5 year old trailer tires & over 7 year old vehicle tires at your own risk!

I just changed out all tires on our 2 daily drivers last year with 75-85% tread remaining, due to both age & micro-cracking in the sidewalls & treads. they were probably a bit past due, & the cracking was earlier than 7 years, but then we have more ozone etc. in the Sunny SoCal air to break down the rubber sooner.

And tire weight has little to do with tire design, construction or purpose for which they're built - it's another non-factor, & probably more related to the rubber compounds' weight, & belts are based on the design purpose - trailer or powered vehicle, as I explained above.

ST tires are designed for limited sidewall flex & lower rolling resistance for an object being pulled more easily - as opposed to the one doing the pulling, which needs to dig in for traction pulling, & flex for traction on turns. Traction on a trailer is counterproductive.

ST tires are designed for trailers, LT are designed for light trucks - can you use either - yes, do you have to use LTs on a trailer - no - what is more important are the proper sizing & maintenance, & using them in the proper speed & heat ranges for either type.

Cheers!
Tom
///////

[TheCabin]

Tom T, thanks for your post. To date our 15" GYM have been fine but the time to replace them is approaching. While I can understand people wanting to go to something that can allow them to travel faster, I too really hope that it does not lead to their trailer shaking apart (more figurative than literal). Your comment "Vehicles are designed with the tires as an integrral part of the suspension system & ride comfort" is so on target. Just changing out tires based on load capacity and size might not be enough for the overall enhancement of the trailer. This is something that requires a deep understanding of the trailer, something that can only be performed by AS. Well, I asked AS a few months back if they had any dynamic analysis that could be used to determine the vibration effect due to tire size change. They told me "we do not have any testing on the difference between the 15” and the 16” tires on vibration of our trailers."

I guess we are all suppose to provide the engineering analysis and data collection for AS.

[Tom_T]

For those of you who absolutely must have LT tires, you might consider the Maxxis ones at this link below.

Bravo Series UE-168(N) | Maxxis Tires USA

We've had their LT205/70R14C 8PR ones on our `88 VW Vanagon CamperGL Westfalia for a year now, & are as good as or better than the OEM original Michelins were when we bought it new in 4/88. They ride nice, reasonable low road noise (VW Vanagons are noisy anyway), good dry & wet traction, deeper tread design so reasonably good in snow & off-pavement. However, they're still powered vehicle tires - not trailer tires.

Goodyear & Michelin are not the only nor necessarily the best tires around in every application, & same for Firestone, Bridgestone, Yokhama, Hankook, Pirelli, Continental, Dunlop, Vredestein & many, many others out there.

It serves you well to read up on the tires tests & ratings for your vehicle or trailer, as well as good ole Consumer Reports.

BTW - I had a tread separation within the first 8,000 miles of the last set of the OEM Michelins on southbound I-15 through Corona to Elsinore stretch in SoCal at the 70 mph speed limit on a 65 degree day/morning. And those tires were made specifically for Vanagons for VW - due to the Vano's relatively narrow track width to height (narrow Euro streets you know), high center of gravity, about 4500-5000+ lbs. for a wet & loaded camper or transporter van with a full load to GVWR.

Additionally, I know a few other Vanagon & Westy owners with the same bad experiences with those Michelins - & they were still made in France in the 1980s-90s then.

So the Michi-Man is NOT perfect either, by far!

Cheers!
Tom
///////

[Tom_T]

Originally Posted by TheCabin

While I can understand people wanting to go to something that can allow them to travel faster, ....

To be clear, I did not say that the LT tires allowed a higher than 65 mph on the trailer application.

To the contrary, all the tire & trailer mfgrs. do NOT recommend towing over 65 mph with any tires - ST, nor LT P-XL, etc.

No comment on whether I've broken that rule on occasion or not.

PS - Their lack of any test data doesn't surprise me, since AS flies seat of the pants since the Wally days, but their quality slipped in the 90's I think, when the ownership changed. I think the vintage ones were better made than the current ones as all the AS restorers will say, & they used to advertise the Avions as "better than the AS" with which the restorers also agree (sorry AS folks).

Be Safe!
Tom
///////

[Tom_T]

One of the most common areas on all riveted trailers to have loose & popped rivets over time is at the belly pans.

This is due to the undercarriage airflow (which the belly pans are there to smooth out), that causes constant buffeting of those pans at speed. So they probably experience to most movement as anywhere on the trailer, & thereby wear through the rivet shafts & heads, as well as stretching & enlarging out the rivet holes in the skins.

So it's a fact of life that you'll be re-riveting over time with any of these trailers - whether AS/Argosy, or the other "Silver Beauty" vintage kin (Avion, Silver Streak, etc.).

Keep 'Em Tight with New Rivets!
Tom
///////