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Old 08-05-2010, 11:45 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by CrawfordGene View Post
...not all reporting are using Hensley or PP hitches...
i see 2 reports in THIS thread from folks using the C rated 15 inch mich' tire, both have hahaz.

and both are towing 30 footers with merc' suvz.

(ok NOW i'm seeing the real conspiracy...)

no tire historian here, but the ST tire was a big improvement over bias ply in terms of heat tolerance, braking and ride quality.

i've read that ST tires evolved from the early soft, sloppy, squealing radials first used in the 70s...

got no idea if that's accurate history.

misc friction based sway dampening devices have been in use for 40+ years...

the haha first appeared in the late 90s.

trailering was LESS common 'back in the day'

and it's messy trying to compare 50s and 60s towing with now.
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Old 08-05-2010, 11:49 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2airishuman View Post
i see 2 user reports in THIS thread using the C rated tire, both have hahaz.

cheers
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Now I know what you meant: "reporting" = reporting with C range tires.

Question 2: which came 1st—good anti-sway devices or ST tires?

Gene
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Old 08-05-2010, 12:03 PM   #45
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depends on the definition of "good anti sway"

the haha, pp and pullrite are ALL predated by ST tires.

and they are typically considered MUCH BETTER than friction based hitches.

cams and outriggers and multipoint friction have been around a long long time.

tires evolve too, that's why comparing the 'LT' or LTX or other mich tires made over 20-30 year span isn't simple.

MANY old timers would argue (with good reasons) that the "best anti sway" has long been...

proper trailer loading, proper tires inflation, proper towing speed, and good driving skills.


cheers
2air'
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Old 08-05-2010, 01:01 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2airishuman View Post
depends on the definition of "good anti sway"

the haha, pp and pullrite are ALL predated by ST tires.

and they are typically considered MUCH BETTER than friction based hitches.

cams and outriggers and multipoint friction have been around a long long time.

cheers
2air'
All is fluid, true, and no definitive answers are possible without a gazillion dollar study. But we must press on.

My thought was ST tires were created to solve a sway problem 30 or so years ago. If no good anti-sway (definition is fluid of course) was available then, there was a need for ST, but since friction based hitches were available (as I expected, but wanted confirmation and you said it in a previous post which I had skimmed over, my apologies). Maybe 30 years ago, "many people" (there it is again) didn't use anti-sway or WD devices, so there was born the ST tire. But, what I am getting at is maybe the ST has outlived it's original purpose, and needs to be killed or redesigned.

Another thing I don't understand is the statement that LT's have a firmer ride, but ST's have a firmer sidewall. Maybe LT's have a firmer tread and that would make for a firmer ride, but a firmer sidewall must make a difference too. The commercial truck type Michelin—the Rib—has a very firm sidewall and would seem to me to be a very firm ride, more like a bias ply—but the LTX series is what I am writing about.

Michelin engineers for a soft ride and my anecdotal experience confirms it. I think they do it by keeping to very, very strict tolerances in manufacturing (plus Bibendum's love for each tire). Perhaps a Michelin LTX has as soft a ride as a poorly manufactured ST tire.

If pressurized air supports the load—and I don't disagree with that, a point often ignored—would sidewall strength matter that much? Are there tests to show there's a significant difference? What is the effect of centrifugal force—all the sidewalls have to do is keep the air in and keep the tread from blowing away.

I selected LT tires figuring ST tires were most important in backing. A sharp turn puts a lot of stress on the sidewalls, so being very careful in backing is a solution (I hope). Most of the time we are not backing (frowned on by the police on the highway), so, if stronger ST sidewalls are desirable for certain uses, LT's seem to be a better choice for what we do most. Driving forward at highway speeds has a lot more chance of trouble, so I think LT's are better for that—unless in an emergency maneuver, the LT performance is inferior to the ST. This may be another area requiring a gazillion dollar study.

Lots of questions and many guesses, some educated, some very logical, some not so logical. Tires, I have discovered, are an endless study with room for vigorous debate, and eventually you just have to buy something.

And, Aage, have you been watching the Red Green DVD collection too much? I thank a drank is a good idea.

Gene
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Old 08-05-2010, 01:24 PM   #47
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i don't agree that ST have a firmer side wall,

that's part of the problem with UNDERinflated ST tires suffering belt separations.

ST have a tall thin SUPPLE sidewall.

and again it's NOT the sidewalls alone that provide load carrying or stability it's the air PRESSURE contained.

d and e rated st tires don't appear a lot different IN the sidewalls on inspection,

they are both SOFT and FLEXIBLE and relatively THIN...

MUCH more so than P or LT tires with the same load capacity.

the E rated ST version is designed to CONTAIN air at higher pressures,

and AGAIN it's the AIR PRESSURE supporting the load not the rubber bits.

P metric and LT tires vary a LOT in side wall 'stiffness' based on SPEED RATING and ASPECT ratio...

and intended purpose (highway cruising vs track or OFF road uses)...

there is a LOT of obvious variation in side wall stiffness/thickness and FLEX that can be noted just by FEELING P or LT tires.

but AGAIN those P and LT tires support loads by way of the AIR PRESSURE inside them.

so YES a C rated LT tire in a 75 aspect ratio might be SOFTER than a D rated ST tire....

because the C /LT only has 50 psi and the ST has 65 psi...

((if the LT was a 30 or 40 series (aspect ratio) tire it would be STIFFER by far than the tall ST...

blanket statements don't really COVER all tires variations...

but once again it's the AIR PRESSURE that supports the load and impacts 'stiffness' in TALL TIRES.

and it's also that AIR PRESSURE that resists sway, controls movement, while UNDERINFLATED tires wallow about...

E rated LT tires in a 75 aspect ratio DO have firmer/thicker "stiffer" sidewalls than E rated st tires...

but the key is STRENGTH of the carcass to CONTAIN the 75-80 psi that SUPPORTS the load ...

cheers
2air'
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Old 12-16-2010, 08:19 PM   #48
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I NEED NEW TIRES desperately. I live in Southern California and have been trying to buy 5 for an Excella 500. I can't find ANY. The Yokohama brand they tried to get are back ordered for 12 weeks.
Does anyone have any ideas for me? THANK YOU SO.
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Old 12-16-2010, 08:38 PM   #49
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The Discount Tires guy here in Texas said they stock four in the store at all times. Have you tried Discount Tire?
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Old 12-16-2010, 08:42 PM   #50
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Note that the Airstream supplement manual on tires states that the LT tires can be used for trailers.
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Originally Posted by heidimac View Post
I NEED NEW TIRES desperately. I live in Southern California and have been trying to buy 5 for an Excella 500. I can't find ANY. The Yokohama brand they tried to get are back ordered for 12 weeks.
Does anyone have any ideas for me? THANK YOU SO.
heidimac
Yeah, things are generally tough to find in SoCal, I guess.

But apparently, according to Airstream, you can buy Light Truck tires, if you can't find (or don't want) ST tires. (see the top quote)

R U looking for 225/75R15 size? That seems to be what folks use on Airstreams...
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Old 12-16-2010, 11:40 PM   #51
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I NEED NEW TIRES desperately...
hi heidi

yep dTd will usually have them and ships quickly...

i see gymarathons, carlisle and maXXis all in stock at ~100-120$.

and other options if U want'em...

Tire Products - Discount Tire Direct

and they will provide road hazard coverage all all but the gyms...

cheers
2air'
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Old 12-17-2010, 08:13 AM   #52
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I put the Michlen LTX 15" load range C on my 25 ft Excell 3 years ago Axle weight 5800 lbs loaded. Tire capacity, 7820 lbs. 50 psi. 40,000 or so miles later the tires are still perfect. trip to Alaska. add air about 4 times per year, and then not much. Listen to talk on the caravans. Many people have had multiple failures with the ST tires. Guys have the TPS system, carry a compressor, check tires every day, and when it blows they are still convinced it is their fault because it "must have been low"? Gimme a break here. Some of the ST tires have been made very poorly. What use is the high load rating on a defective tire?

Bought a longer, heavier trailer. Had to make a quick choice to put tires on it to bring it home. Went with the GYM because the trailer gross listed weight 8300 is over the load range c tires. Do they make load range D, 15" LT tires? This trailer is going to be parked a lot and I think the ST tires will be better for that. Had a flat tire after a week with the ST tires, but it turned out to be a poor seal to the rim.
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Old 12-17-2010, 09:51 AM   #53
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From Michelin on their tires for RV usage. The tire guide is well worth reading.

Welcome to Michelin North America RV Website
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Old 09-19-2013, 01:37 PM   #54
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I am curious if Rluhr is still using the 15" Michelins on his 30 foot trailer. I am considering using them on my new 28 FC. I realize the margin is slim, but I am curious with his results.
Thanks,
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Old 09-20-2013, 05:07 PM   #55
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Hi Rick

Rich is still using the Michelins he installed about 4 years ago. He has not had a single failure. Before that he averaging 3 replacement ST's a year. Our experience with at least 1000 of these on the road on customers units is that we have not seen a single separation shifted belt etc.

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Old 09-20-2013, 07:25 PM   #56
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Andy is absolutely correct. My Michelin LTX 235/15 R15 tires were installed January 2010. We've inspected them every year and found no problems. This May we flipped the tires (to white-letter side out) just to even out the wear. They still have 7/32" or better tread and have been flawless in every respect.

I estimate the tires currently have about 34,000 miles on them. I plan to replace them sometime in 2014 or 2015 only because of age, and will buy the same tires again.

FYI, our 2005 30 ft Safari bunk comes in at about 7,500 lbs loaded.

Thank you, Andy, for the great advice to switch to these tires.
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