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Old 07-12-2016, 02:54 PM   #1
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Michelin LTX for our 19'

Since the popular Michelin LTX MS/2 is a passenger rated tire (and not an LT) does it need to be derated 10% for trailer use? I was under the impression it did not and I need to know if I will be safe with my intended use of this tire. I have a single axle 19' (2004 international) and I need to replace the stock GY Marathons after less than two years. My trailer GVWR is 4500 and the axle rating is 4300. I was going to go with a set of these Michelins that are rated at 2183 per tire or 4366 for the axle. This doesn't seem to provide much margin, but would at least be greater (by 66 pounds) than the axle rating. The new Michelin Defender LTX M/S is another options and those are rated slightly higher - 2271 per tire or 4552 for the axle. Am I thinking this through properly? I wanted to make sure the tires I get are going to be properly rated for our single axle application. Thx
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Old 07-12-2016, 03:12 PM   #2
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Welcome to the forum!

There are lots of threads on this, so I will link the most recent FYI:

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f438...es-148274.html
http://www.airforums.com/forums/f438...bo-145934.html

If you go up a level to this sub-forum you can scan the list of threads for similar posts:

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f438/

Why Michelins? http://www.airforums.com/forums/f438...es-152993.html

15" Michelins? http://www.airforums.com/forums/f438...re-151956.html
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Old 07-12-2016, 03:37 PM   #3
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The Michelin LTX in the 15" size is a P235x15XL so it is a P tire and needs to be derated for trailer use. I think it comes out to 1983 but check that. So it would not be rated high enough for 4200 lb axles. I love the tires and use them but on my tandem axle trailer I have 3200 lb axles so I have a lot of overhead on load rating.
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Old 07-12-2016, 03:51 PM   #4
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Do they make that tire in different load ranges? A Load Range E tire, if you can get one P rated, may give you more margin, but it may be a 16" and LT rated. Some people with smaller trailers have changed to 16" wheels, but it may or may not fit in the wheel well. There are some mods easily made on the wheel wells, but different trailers are, well, different.

While giving yourself a margin feels good, if the tire rating and the axle weight line up ok, you should be ok. I suspect Michelin has already figured in some margin because they know lots of people ignore that and cheat.

You will be safer with Michelins if you can find the right one. Check out the Michelin RIB tires. "Phoenix" has been using them for years and I believe he has a smaller trailer. They are basically for intracity truck use and are made to be retreaded several times, but may do the trick.

Gene
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Old 07-13-2016, 12:18 PM   #5
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I have a 16' Bambi Sport with a GVRW of 3500. Thinking of getting the 15" Michelin LTX (P) 235/75R15 XL tires. Where would I find the axle rating for the Bambi?
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Old 07-13-2016, 03:13 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill M. View Post
The Michelin LTX in the 15" size is a P235x15XL so it is a P tire and needs to be derated for trailer use. I think it comes out to 1983 but check that. So it would not be rated high enough for 4200 lb axles. I love the tires and use them but on my tandem axle trailer I have 3200 lb axles so I have a lot of overhead on load rating.
Here we go again,
And you need to derate them because? And if in your mind you pretend does it actually make 10% of the load capacity evaporate ?
The tire WILL give you the use capacity stamped on it period.
The LTX is a Light Truck Tire with Extra Load capacity not a passenger car tire.
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Old 07-13-2016, 04:36 PM   #7
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It is my understanding that the 10% reduction is a DOT requirement for passenger tires on trailers.
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Old 07-13-2016, 05:39 PM   #8
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Michelin LTX for our 19'

From the CFR (code of (U.S.) Federal Regulations)

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/49/571.110

This subsection reduces the capacity by about 9.1%, not 10% as frequently misquoted:

S4.2.2.2 When passenger car tires are installed on an MPV, truck, bus, or trailer, each tire's load rating is reduced by dividing it by 1.10 before determining, under S4.2.2.1, the sum of the maximum load ratings of the tires fitted to an axle.

And earlier in the reg, we're told not to exceed 94% of the rating with normal load:

S4.2.1.2 The vehicle normal load on the tire shall not be greater than 94 percent of the load rating at the vehicle manufacturer's recommended cold inflation pressure for that tire.

So you could argue...

(P/1.1)*.94=Md

(where P=max printed load at cold PSI on passenger tire, and Md=max de-rated load)

For a 15" Michelin P-rated tire with 2184# (at 50 PSI) printed on the sidewall, that would mean:

2184/1.1 (or 1985) *.94=1866

That's 3732# per axle to be within regulation.

My double axle 27FB comes in just about 6000# on the scales camp ready which leaves over 700# capacity per axle - even when derated a total of 15% from sidewall stamp to comply with this reg.

If your single axle trailer is over 3732# on the scales, these tires wouldn't enable you to meet this U.S. Federal regulation.

No judgment there - just stating a fact.

On edit: the Defender version would net you a single axle load of 3860#.
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Old 07-13-2016, 05:48 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by franklyfrank View Post
Here we go again,

And you need to derate them because? And if in your mind you pretend does it actually make 10% of the load capacity evaporate ?

The tire WILL give you the use capacity stamped on it period.

The LTX is a Light Truck Tire with Extra Load capacity not a passenger car tire.

If you know we're going through this again, please don't continue to mistake the marketing acronym "LTX" on these tires as meeting the "LT" or Light Truck definition. These 15" Michelins are P rated tires.

To specifically answer your question "we derate them because?", please see my previous reply. If one wants to adhere to the Federal regs, these tires can not be used at their printed sidewall capacity. If one doesn't want to adhere to the regs, one can quadruple the printed capacity for all I care 😀
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Old 07-13-2016, 05:56 PM   #10
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Canyonduck- have you weighed your trailer loaded for camping? You may find you're not at the GVWR or GAWR for your trailer but something less than that. You may have the space to do it, but if not, you might want to check out the Pirelli LT 15" here:

https://m.tirerack.com/tires/TireDet...=375SR5SCORATR

2335# each at 65 PSI or 4670 per axle (4400 if you use the 94% rule mentioned earlier).

Good luck!
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Old 07-13-2016, 09:19 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by franklyfrank View Post
Here we go again,
And you need to derate them because? And if in your mind you pretend does it actually make 10% of the load capacity evaporate ?
The tire WILL give you the use capacity stamped on it period.
The LTX is a Light Truck Tire with Extra Load capacity not a passenger car tire.
A passenger car tire, not a light truck tire!
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Old 07-14-2016, 08:04 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by franklyfrank View Post
Here we go again,
And you need to derate them because? And if in your mind you pretend does it actually make 10% of the load capacity evaporate ?
The tire WILL give you the use capacity stamped on it period.
The LTX is a Light Truck Tire with Extra Load capacity not a passenger car tire.
I'm sorry, but Michelin LTX's come in LT versions and P type versions. LT versions are specified in Load Ranges - C, D, E, etc. - and P type tires are specified as Standard Load (SL) and Extra Load (XL).

ALL P type tires - regardless of who manufacturers them - need to be derated 10% when used on trucks, trailers and multi-purpose vehicles. It's part of the engineering specs, and are, as a result, reflected in the regulations.
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Old 07-14-2016, 09:11 AM   #13
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Ray Eklund's excellent thread, linked in Post #2 here, contains a fairly complete discussion from many posters about all these issues.

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f438...es-148274.html

Any chance of picking up the discussion from the last Post #196 there, after everyone has digested the information therein, instead of re-inventing the wheel here?

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Old 07-14-2016, 07:31 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tjdonahoe View Post
A passenger car tire, not a light truck tire!

Please take a picture and post here the next time you see a car with the LTX Ms tires on it. That car will have an over 8,000 lbs GVW rating.

However these LTX tires on my 30' Airstream do make it ride like a car. My shower door doesn't fall down anymore and everything stays in place without nailing or velcroing it in place after a hard days drive mostly at 70 MPH.

Note to the guys writing the tire regulations at the DOT: Must derate the GYM tires asap to junk status due to the threads separating from the sidewalls.
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