Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 07-15-2016, 06:24 PM   #29
4 Rivet Member
 
Adventure.AS's Avatar
 
2017 25' International
Toronto , Ontario
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 363
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcole View Post
The " T " is the speed rating & no more. You are wrong, Michelin web sites do not use this code to designate whether it is a passenger or truck tire.
The 109 is the speed rating.
__________________

__________________
Ray B.
WBCCI #6497

“One test is worth a thousand 'expert' opinions”
Sign at Boeing headquarters, posted by test pilot Alvin “Tex” Johnston, c1948
Adventure.AS is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2016, 07:05 PM   #30
Rivet Master

 
Vintage Kin Owner
Nowhere , Somewhere
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 5,684
The 109 is the load rating not speed
__________________

__________________
1984 Avion 30p 9.1 meter. 2006 Dodge 3500 cummins srw short bed crew cab.
avionstream is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2016, 07:14 PM   #31
4 Rivet Member
 
Adventure.AS's Avatar
 
2017 25' International
Toronto , Ontario
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 363
Quote:
Originally Posted by avionstream View Post
The 109 is the load rating not speed
Sorry, your correct, my mistake.

However,

according to Tire Rack:

T - 118 mph 190 km/h Family Sedans & Vans
__________________
Ray B.
WBCCI #6497

“One test is worth a thousand 'expert' opinions”
Sign at Boeing headquarters, posted by test pilot Alvin “Tex” Johnston, c1948
Adventure.AS is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2016, 07:31 PM   #32
Rivet Master
 
Gene's Avatar
 
2008 25' Safari FB SE
Grand Junction , Colorado
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 10,814
If you wanted to confuse people, could you have come up with a more effective way of doing it than all these ratings?

My understanding is that ST tires have "stiffer" sidewalls. Whether they are "stronger" appears to be a different thing to me. The reason they were created was when radial tires became popular and bias ply tires weren't as available, the Special Trailer tire was a radial with a stiffer sidewall. Bias play tires also had stiffer sidewalls. This is important when backing because backing puts a lot of pressure on the sidewalls. It also reduces some sway.

A lot of half ton trucks and truck based SUV's have come with P tires for years. Really cheap ones came on your 2007 Tundra. I couldn't wait to get rid of them. My impression is that LT's have stiffer sidewalls than P's, and Michelin Rib tires have even stiffer ones then other LT tires.

Gene
__________________
Gene is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2016, 12:59 PM   #33
4 Rivet Member
 
2013 30' International
Anna Maria , Florida
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 432
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveSueMac View Post
Frankly, franklyfrank, you seem pretty riled up by this topic and I can't understand why.

If your profile is up to date, you have a 2013 30' Int'l with a dry weight of 6300 and GVWR of over 8000. Have you ever weighed it fully loaded for camping?

If you come in at 7425# or less, you're fully compliant with the regs (both the de-rating of 9.1% and not using more than 94% of that capacity).

Where's the fear mongering in that? It's just a factual observation.
I operated 25 semi tractor trailer dump truck's in my construction business for 35 years. That's a lot of tires and truck weighing in my life time. Pulling a trailer for fun is child's play for me. Anyone not weighing their travel ready trailer is making decisions in the blind. To me that is job number one. With that information one can make a intelligent decisions especially where tires are concerned. What gripes me that without an exception when these tire discussions come up the first thing that comes up " you must Derate " if it's not an ST tire. There are a lot of great options out there other than ST tires that I belive are the worst things to put on an Airstream. They have a rough ride, limited speed and forever in need of tire pressure adjustment.
__________________
franklyfrank is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2016, 01:57 PM   #34
Rivet Master
 
SteveSueMac's Avatar

 
2012 27' Flying Cloud
W , New England
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,867
Good to know your background. While I don't have your experience, I think we are saying many of the same things. It's key to weigh your rig and know what you're dealing with. How else could you make a good tire decision? I

And to be clear - I've never said to de-rate if it's not an ST. I've only quoted from the CFR about de-rating P tires when used on a trailer. No one derates an LT (though I suppose some stick with the 94% from that same source).

Last - these 15" Michelins (which I use myself) whether original or Defender version are - according to Michelin - P tires or Euro/equivalent to P. So if people WANT to adhere to that reg, they need to weigh their trailer and determine if the derated capacity is sufficient. If they DON'T want to be in compliance with the regs, they will do whatever they want.

Happy camping!
__________________
SteveSueMac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2016, 09:47 PM   #35
4 Rivet Member
 
2013 30' International
Anna Maria , Florida
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 432
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveSueMac View Post
Frankly, franklyfrank, you seem pretty riled up by this topic and I can't understand why.

If your profile is up to date, you have a 2013 30' Int'l with a dry weight of 6300 and GVWR of over 8000. Have you ever weighed it fully loaded for camping?

If you come in at 7425# or less, you're fully compliant with the regs (both the de-rating of 9.1% and not using more than 94% of that capacity).

Where's the fear mongering in that? It's just a factual observation.
FYI, I wouldn't take my Trailer and TV set up on an extended trip without knowing my weight of all axles and specific tongue weight. Not having this information one can not make informed decisions especially relating to safety. I operated 25 semi tractor dump trucks in my construction business for 35 years. That is a lot of years of worrying about proper loading and managing tires. The GYM ST tires are pure junk and Airstream shouldn't be installing them on these premium Trailers. They are still pushing these units of the line with 15" wheels and GYM tires.
__________________
franklyfrank is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2016, 05:57 AM   #36
2 Rivet Member
 
2016 22' Sport
Glenville , New York
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveSueMac View Post
Good to know your background. While I don't have your experience, I think we are saying many of the same things. It's key to weigh your rig and know what you're dealing with. How else could you make a good tire decision? I

And to be clear - I've never said to de-rate if it's not an ST. I've only quoted from the CFR about de-rating P tires when used on a trailer. No one derates an LT (though I suppose some stick with the 94% from that same source).

Last - these 15" Michelins (which I use myself) whether original or Defender version are - according to Michelin - P tires or Euro/equivalent to P. So if people WANT to adhere to that reg, they need to weigh their trailer and determine if the derated capacity is sufficient. If they DON'T want to be in compliance with the regs, they will do whatever they want.

Happy camping!
I do not doubt your source regarding that the Defender tires , at least the P version rated tires sold/marketed on Michelin's web site for mini vans /passenger cars but for those reading this do not get these confused with the latest Michelin 235/75/ 15 109T XLT which are being sold/advertised by Michelin as a LT (truck) tire. Now if you think a LT Truck tire still has to be de-rated or the de-rated issue is a bunch of crap one can debate this til the cow's come home. The fact is .... some defender tires are sold for passenger cars & some like the one I just mentioned ( 235/75/15 109T - 2271# load rating are being sold & marketed by Michelin as a " LT Truck Tire " . For me, I made the decision to put these on my 22 ' Sport Bambi because they meet my single axle/load requirements & are a better tire than the ST Marathons that were originally on my 2016 Airstrteam. Here are two pictures of the latest Michelin 15" 235/75/15 next to the original 15" ST Marathons, first one with the Michelin next to the original GYM mounted spare. The other next to one of the GYM before mounted on the new 15" rims.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	DSC01965.JPG
Views:	39
Size:	75.8 KB
ID:	267037   Click image for larger version

Name:	DSC01964.JPG
Views:	34
Size:	87.2 KB
ID:	267042  

__________________
jcole is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2016, 06:48 AM   #37
Rivet Master
 
SteveSueMac's Avatar

 
2012 27' Flying Cloud
W , New England
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,867
Jcole - I'm not going to argue with you. I asked them specifically about the model you think is an "LT" and their response is that it is "Euro" which for all intents and purposes should be thought of as a "P". I'm not a tire engineer, I have to trust their assessment.
__________________
SteveSueMac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2016, 09:11 AM   #38
Top
Always learning
 
Top's Avatar
 
1972 29' Ambassador
1962 19' Globetrotter
1951 21' Flying Cloud
Central , Texas
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,778
Images: 24
Blog Entries: 2
Send a message via Yahoo to Top
I haven't been on the ol' Airforums for a while, but glad to see the same old arguments are always present.

__________________
Lance

Work is never done, so take time to play!
Top is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2016, 09:35 AM   #39
Rivet Master

 
2014 20' Flying Cloud
Long Island , New York
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 3,266
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcole View Post
. . . the latest Michelin 235/75/ 15 109T XLT
. . .
2271# load rating
. . .
I made the decision to put these on my 22 ' Sport Bambi because they meet my single axle/load requirements & are a better tire than the ST Marathons that were originally on my 2016 . . .
Thanks for the new information. We are also considering a similar upgrade for our single-axle 2014 FC20 (gross weight 5000 lbs.).

Airstream pegs your gross weight at 4500 lbs., and I assume that this does not include any stone guards, rear bumper, or other options you may have added like more awnings, etc.. Even without de-rating the tires, and without options, you are right at the limit. Curious whether there were any other 15" Michelin tires available with a higher load rating than you got? Or do we have to go to 16" for E and higher weight ratings?

The Michelin site is not the most user-friendly, and seems to contain old info. When we get ready to upgrade, our tire dealer will have to help sort this out, perhaps in the Fall.

If you have time, could you post the clearance of your tires at the sidewall to the wheel well, and also at the front or rear outside corner of the tread near the closest aluminum bottom corner?

Thanks,

Peter
__________________
OTRA15 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2016, 09:49 AM   #40
CapriRacer
 
CapriRacer's Avatar
 
I'm in the , US
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 545
There seems to be a bit of confusion about the difference between a P type tire, a Passenger Car tire, an LT tire and a Light Truck tire - and whether or not a particular version of a Michelin tire needs to be derated for use on a trailer.

The easiest way to explain this is to point out that the words *LT tire* refer to a load table in The Tire and Rim Association (TRA) yearbook. The tire will ALWAYS have the letters *LT* in front of the size - except to say that some people forget, perhaps thinking they are not important. They are wrong!

These tires are designed for use on Light Trucks - a vehicle designation, meaning a vehicle designed to haul cargo or people up to 10,000# GVW (Gross Vehicle Weight) - and a bit beyond. This GVW limitation is mostly a government regulation kind of thing and the tire load limitation doesn't quite match up - but it is close.

But LT type tires can be used in other applications with some adjustments - such as trailers, SUV's, buses, mobile cranes, road pavers, etc. It is those adjustments - which are delineated in the TRA yearbook - that guide folks when using those tires in those applications.

But what about small pickup trucks? Are they light trucks and would they use LT tires? Well, they are Light Trucks, but as a general rule, they use P type tires.

So what are P type tires? These are sometimes referred to as *Passenger Car Tires*, since that is the use they are designed for. And here is where is gets a bit more convoluted.

Tires designed to US P type standards (that is, according TRA standards) have the letter *P* in front of the size. But tires designed to European or Asian tire standards (ETRTO - European Tyre and Rim Technical Organization - and JATMA - Japanese Automobile Tyre Manufacturers Association) do not use the letter *P*.

But all 3 of these types of P type tires can be used in other applications if certain adjustments are made. For example, if a P type tire is used on a Light Truck, or a Trailer, it has to be derated by a factor of 1.1. This applies regardless of whether or not the tire was designed to US standards (with the *P*) or European or Asian Standards (without the *P*)

Further complications: Since a tire on a small pickup would be used differently than a tire on a large car, tire manufacturers would design the tires slightly differently. However, the size designations would be the same. So you will find tire retailers listing certain lines of tires as *Light Truck* tires - referring to the vehicle - while the tire itself could be designed to P type tire standards. Confusing? You bet!!

The tire in question is a 235/75R15 109T XL Michelin Defender LTX M/S. Since it doesn't have the letters *LT* in front of the size, it is not an *LT tire* - that is built to the US LT load table. It also doesn't have the letter *P* in front of the size, so it isn't built to the US P type tire load table. In fact it has no letter in front at all, so it is either built to the European P type standard or the Asian type standard - and Michelin themselves say it is the former and not the latter. (and that makes sense given that they are a French company).

And a short cut to tell if you are dealing with a P type tire or an LT type tire: P type tires come in Standard Load (SL) and Extra Load (XL), while LT type tires come in Load Ranges (or the obsolete and discarded designation Ply Rating)

I hope this clarifies things.
__________________
CapriRacer is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2016, 02:15 PM   #41
2 Rivet Member
 
2016 22' Sport
Glenville , New York
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveSueMac View Post
Jcole - I'm not going to argue with you. I asked them specifically about the model you think is an "LT" and their response is that it is "Euro" which for all intents and purposes should be thought of as a "P". I'm not a tire engineer, I have to trust their assessment.
No argument wanted here either. Early on in June of this year when I tried to talk to someone over the phone at Michelin they could not even reference any info on this tire. I am not a tire expert either, so all the info(data) which I based my decision on is what their web site says now and what info my local tire guy was able to get from his Michelin rep when the new defenders came available for him to order. I have nothing more to add except my tire guy thought the GYM ST tires were junk and that the decision to put on the Michelins was a no brainer if I could live with the added cost to upgrade.
__________________
jcole is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2016, 02:41 PM   #42
Rivet Master
 
SteveSueMac's Avatar

 
2012 27' Flying Cloud
W , New England
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,867
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcole View Post
...
my tire guy thought the GYM ST tires were junk and that the decision to put on the Michelins was a no brainer if I could live with the added cost to upgrade.

That's why I did it. Some report a perfectly fine experience w/GYMs, some not so much. I'm happy with the Michelins and don't worry about them at all. Happy camping!
__________________

__________________
SteveSueMac is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Michelin LTX M/S versus Michelin LTX M/S 2 - Which Would You Choose? doutterson Tires 40 10-23-2016 10:08 PM
Michelin LTX LT 235/75-15 JakeSpoon Tires 63 07-03-2015 05:18 PM
Michelin P235/75R15 LTX for use as a trailer tire?? Streamside Tires 50 03-28-2014 07:41 AM
Michelin LTX M/S tires... Dwight Tires 7 01-14-2010 06:21 PM
Michelin 235/75R15 LTX M/S vs Marathon ST225/75r15 EXCEL88 Tires 3 06-16-2008 08:41 PM


Virginia Campgrounds

Reviews provided by



Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities


Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:17 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

Airstream is a registered trademark of Airstream Inc. All rights reserved. Airstream trademark used under license to Social Knowledge LLC.