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Old 01-13-2016, 02:51 AM   #113
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The 2013 30' International mentioned in post #106 has a GVW of 8,800 pounds. The two axles are rated 4,500, pounds each. Two of the installed derated Michelin LTX MS/2 P235 R/15 tires have a combined payload less than their axle rating. So the operator is in violation of article S4.2.2.1 of 49 CFR 571.110 mentioned in post #109 above.

Insurance companies could walk away from paying a claim citing willful negligence or something similar for undersized tires for the axles. The operator would need certified scales proof of each tire's load to try and counter that argument. Just saying...
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Old 01-13-2016, 10:23 AM   #114
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A point on pressure that I learned here-
The pressure that the Michelin LTX M/S2 P235/75R15XL 108T carries its rated load is 41 PSI. The maximum pressure is 50 PSI. There is no load capacity increase above 41 PSI.
Tire Tech Information - Tire Specs Explained: Maximum Load
Thanks for the facts. I was wondering about the oft stated 51 psi when 41 is the normal max associated with XL passenger tires.
I was assuming that when this tire topic was started the information on Load and Inflation was being correctly reported.

As I have previously reported the numbers associated with the "complete" size nomenclature are very important. When discussing Load and inflation it should eb easy to read the tire as the max load and the inflation needed to support that load are clearly stated together.

There is also a "Safety warning" on many passenger and LT tires that includes a statement about "max inflation" but that number is really the max pressure that should ever be used when inflating a tire to ensure proper seating of the tire bead against the rim. This number is not associated with the load carrying capacity of the tire.

Here is a sample Safety Warning from a Performance 16" passenger tire



Here is the Load and inflation information, again for a passenger tire



Now while the above are from a passenger tire that was convenient for me to get pictures of, I know that you should see similar on your ST or LT type tires.

I think you may learn a bit more about your own tires if you take a moment to read the information provided. Knowing what tires say on the sidewall can help avoid making mistakes when assumptions are made.
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Old 01-13-2016, 10:51 AM   #115
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Fair enough, I guess. However, as the OP, I was posting about the potential of using these tires on an International 27FB with a GVW of 7,600 pounds. I would not use them on a trailer with a GVW of 8,800 pounds on two axles.

Thanks!

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The 2013 30' International mentioned in post #106 has a GVW of 8,800 pounds. The two axles are rated 4,500, pounds each. Two of the installed derated Michelin LTX MS/2 P235 R/15 tires have a combined payload less than their axle rating. So the operator is in violation of article S4.2.2.1 of 49 CFR 571.110 mentioned in post #109 above.
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Old 01-13-2016, 01:19 PM   #116
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A point on pressure that I learned here-
The pressure that the Michelin LTX M/S2 P235/75R15XL 108T carries its rated load is 41 PSI. The maximum pressure is 50 PSI. There is no load capacity increase above 41 PSI.
Tire Tech Information - Tire Specs Explained: Maximum Load
Your comment is incorrect and misleading.
The load capacity of 2,183 LBS at 50 PSI is stamped right on the tire.
The XL designation is extra load. There are a number ST tires manufactured with dual D and E load capacities at 60 and 80 PSI respectively.

My loaded 30' International never exceeded 6,800 LBS the way we travel, and that is constant over the last 3 years. That is with the water tank close to full. With the Blue Ox WDH the dual axle loading on the trailer increases to the max of 7,100 LBS. aprox. 1,775 LBS per wheel within specs and reasonable safety expectations.
In my younger days I drove Gasoline and Chemical tankers for a number of years. In my own construction business I operated 25 Semi Dumps for 30 years. I am more than a little acquainted with vehicle weights, trailer loading and tire safety.
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Old 01-13-2016, 03:17 PM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by franklyfrank View Post
Your comment is incorrect and misleading.
The load capacity of 2,183 LBS at 50 PSI is stamped right on the tire.
The XL designation is extra load. There are a number ST tires manufactured with dual D and E load capacities at 60 and 80 PSI respectively.
Frank,
Sorry, but you obviously didn't read the link in my post or the post from Tireman9, a tire engineer.

Yes, the tire is stamped with 50 PSI MAX, but that is not the pressure it obtains the maximum load capacity. That pressure is 41 PSI.

Here is a post when Capri Racer, another tire engineer, educated me on the 41 PSI issue.
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Old 01-13-2016, 04:25 PM   #118
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Max load at 41 psi brought up in my post #20. Just sayin'.....
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Old 01-14-2016, 07:08 AM   #119
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The axles on the 25' to 27/28' Airstream International trailers are rated 3,800 pounds per the Airstream parts manual.

Thus two Michelin LTX (P) 235/75R15 XL tires sidewall rated 2,183 pounds @ 50 psi but derated to 1,985 pounds for trailer use exceed the axle rating by more margin than the two factory installed GYM ST225/75R15D tires rated 2,540 pounds @ 65 psi installed on the 5,000 pound axles of my 2014 31' Classic.

The 16" Michelin LT225/75R16/E LTX M/S2 tires rated 2,680 pounds @ 80 psi I installed on our Classic have more load margin than the stock GYM ST225/75R15D tires and these Michelins are now standard on 2015 and later 31' Classics.

No matter what the scale ticket says, the two Michelin LTX (P) 235/75R15 XL tires sidewall rated 2,183 pounds @ 50 psi but derated to 1,985 pounds for trailer use are under rated for the 4,500 pound axles used on the 30' trailers with GVW of 8,800 pounds. The insurance company could be legally correct for denying a tire related claim citing:

***********************

49 CFR 571.110

Tire selection and rims and motor home/recreation vehicle trailer load carrying capacity information for motor vehicles with a GVWR of 4,536 kilograms (10,000 pounds) or less.

S4.2.2.1

Except as provided in S4.2.2.2, the sum of the maximum load ratings of the tires fitted to an axle shall not be less than the GAWR of the axle system as specified on the vehicle's certification label required by 49 CFR part 567. If the certification label shows more than one GAWR for the axle system, the sum shall be not less than the GAWR corresponding to the size designation of the tires fitted to the axle.

S4.2.2.2

When passenger car tires are installed on an MPV, truck, bus, or trailer, each tire's load rating is reduced by dividing it by 1.10 before determining, under S4.2.2.1, the sum of the maximum load ratings of the tires fitted to an axle.

S4.2.2.3

(a) For vehicles, except trailers with no designated seating positions, equipped with passenger car tires, the vehicle normal load on the tire shall be no greater than 94 percent of the derated load rating at the vehicle manufacturer's recommended cold inflation pressure for that tire.
(b) For vehicles, except trailers with no designated seating positions, equipped with LT tires, the vehicle normal load on the tire shall be no greater than 94 percent of the load rating at the vehicle manufacturer's recommended cold inflation pressure for that tire.

************************

Andy at CanAm suggested running the 15" Michelins at 44 psi on both my 25FB and the 23D.

The Michelins are my tire of choice for my trailers and four tire vehicles.
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Old 01-14-2016, 08:03 AM   #120
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Read franklyfrank again.

He is stating what is actually stamped on the tire in question. Mine also have the "load" at 50 psi stamped on the sidewall. They are 650 miles away right now but I checked the last time we had this discussion.
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Old 01-14-2016, 08:25 AM   #121
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Bill,
I have these same tires, as you know. We've argued this 41 vs 50 PSI thing for years.
The MAX LOAD and MAX PRESSURE are two different lines. They are separate.


It does not say MAX LOAD AT 50 PSI.

Extra Load tires achieve their rated load capacity at 41 PSI.
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Old 01-14-2016, 09:13 AM   #122
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Read franklyfrank again.

He is stating what is actually stamped on the tire in question. Mine also have the "load" at 50 psi stamped on the sidewall. They are 650 miles away right now but I checked the last time we had this discussion.
As I commented before over analysis induces paralysis.
The most important individual attribute, in short supply in our society is common sens. There are lawyers in our country arguing the meaning of " IS".
I am no more suicidal than the next person and do my homework on important issues such as trailer loading and tire safety so here is my final post for you folks to peruse on this.

2012 F-150 Platinum HD tow 360 GL tank 3.73 rear end.
Tires: Michelin LTX MS 2 P275/55 R20 Max Load at 44 PSI 2403 lbs.
Nowhere does it state on the tire to do calculations and reduce the weight information stamped on the tire. The information is clear and concise.

I run 35 PSI on the fronts per MFG recommendation and 40 PSI on the rears to match my rear axle load. This Combo gives me the best ride and accommodates the load.
2013 International 30' with the tire specs listed. The most I ever weigh in at is 6,800 LBS on the trailer an that is with close to full water tank. With the WDH it gets to 7,100 LBS aprox. 1,775 LBS per wheel.

My first WD hitch was an EZ Trunion 1,200 LBS rating. It was good at WD and Sway but was a rivet popper and trailer destroyer. The second was an Anderson that I struggled to tweek for a whole season but it was disaster a useless pos. I finally graduated to the Blue Ox and never looked back, its the best IMHO. Great ride, positive WD and Sway control every time.
I am most satisfied with my set up and it has proven itself to be safe traveling through the Rockies and out west, hitting every pass. Not to mention driving through the side winds and Semi traffic of Kansas and Nebraska.
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Old 01-14-2016, 09:37 AM   #123
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Frank,
Since those tires on your F-150 are Standard Load, they achieve their rated load at 35 PSI, hence the pressure rating from Ford. Ford made the proper calculations for you. They are required to do so.

Enjoy the tow!
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Old 01-14-2016, 10:53 AM   #124
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Super helpful and clear post, Switz. Thanks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by switz View Post
The axles on the 25' to 27/28' Airstream International trailers are rated 3,800 pounds per the Airstream parts manual.

Thus two Michelin LTX (P) 235/75R15 XL tires sidewall rated 2,183 pounds @ 50 psi but derated to 1,985 pounds for trailer use exceed the axle rating by more margin than the two factory installed GYM ST225/75R15D tires rated 2,540 pounds @ 65 psi installed on the 5,000 pound axles of my 2014 31' Classic.

The 16" Michelin LT225/75R16/E LTX M/S2 tires rated 2,680 pounds @ 80 psi I installed on our Classic have more load margin than the stock GYM ST225/75R15D tires and these Michelins are now standard on 2015 and later 31' Classics.

No matter what the scale ticket says, the two Michelin LTX (P) 235/75R15 XL tires sidewall rated 2,183 pounds @ 50 psi but derated to 1,985 pounds for trailer use are under rated for the 4,500 pound axles used on the 30' trailers with GVW of 8,800 pounds. The insurance company could be legally correct for denying a tire related claim citing:

***********************

49 CFR 571.110

Tire selection and rims and motor home/recreation vehicle trailer load carrying capacity information for motor vehicles with a GVWR of 4,536 kilograms (10,000 pounds) or less.

S4.2.2.1

Except as provided in S4.2.2.2, the sum of the maximum load ratings of the tires fitted to an axle shall not be less than the GAWR of the axle system as specified on the vehicle's certification label required by 49 CFR part 567. If the certification label shows more than one GAWR for the axle system, the sum shall be not less than the GAWR corresponding to the size designation of the tires fitted to the axle.

S4.2.2.2

When passenger car tires are installed on an MPV, truck, bus, or trailer, each tire's load rating is reduced by dividing it by 1.10 before determining, under S4.2.2.1, the sum of the maximum load ratings of the tires fitted to an axle.

S4.2.2.3

(a) For vehicles, except trailers with no designated seating positions, equipped with passenger car tires, the vehicle normal load on the tire shall be no greater than 94 percent of the derated load rating at the vehicle manufacturer's recommended cold inflation pressure for that tire.
(b) For vehicles, except trailers with no designated seating positions, equipped with LT tires, the vehicle normal load on the tire shall be no greater than 94 percent of the load rating at the vehicle manufacturer's recommended cold inflation pressure for that tire.

************************

Andy at CanAm suggested running the 15" Michelins at 44 psi on both my 25FB and the 23D.

The Michelins are my tire of choice for my trailers and four tire vehicles.
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Old 01-14-2016, 01:40 PM   #125
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So are you telling us that if you run this tire at 50 psi it will carry less load than if it is run at 41 psi? I have a hard time with that. Fortunately I have plenty of extra capacity so it does not matter to me. I run at about 48 to 50 because I think most properties of a tire improve with higher inflation. I have shown no tread wear at all though 2 sets of these tires and it tracks and pulls well.
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Old 01-14-2016, 01:47 PM   #126
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So are you telling us that if you run this tire at 50 psi it will carry less load than it it is run at 41 psi? ...snip...

I read it differently - that the full load capacity (1985# de-rated for use on a trailer) is reached at 41PSI - you don't get less load at 50, but you don't gain load capacity above 41 either.
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