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Old 01-04-2016, 07:16 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by Jim & Susan View Post
So what's the difference? I guess what I'm asking (maybe?) is what difference does it make? If the side-walls of the tire can handle the rough conditions of trailer towing, eg, like a LR C/D/E tire, what does it matter? I think I understand de-rating, but my camper is very light by modern standards (<4000 lbs), so weight shouldn't be an issue with the above captioned tires (I think).

Respectfully submitted, I much value your input here, tireman.

Jim
Jim,

The problem isn't the sidewalls. It's the belts - what is commonly called a tread separation. Tire engineers like myself and Tireman9 call these belt leaving belt separations, to distinguish from other types.

And to try to completely explain the situation, I think there are 3 problems:

1) Trailer manufacturers have not done a good job of estimating how much stuff people put in their trailer. It is common to find trailers overloaded. Note, this is NOT an owner problem. It's a vehicle design problem. Whether this applies to Airstreams or not, I just do not have enough information to make a judgement.

2) Trailer manufacturers have not done a good job of selecting tires. They frequently choose marginal tires for load and speed and from questionable sources.

3) Trailer tire manufacturers tend to be lower tier. Their level of quality leaves something to be desired. Many are Chinese and well disconnected from the consumer. Not only don't they get any feedback, but there is no incentive to improve.

Even the 2 upper tier trailer tire manufacturers have little incentive to improve. Cost is very much driving this part of the business.

So I think you will find both Tireman9 and I singing the same song - go bigger.
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Old 01-08-2016, 03:09 PM   #100
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Clarification from Michelin

Michelin said
"
Roger, we apologize for the confusion. Michelin makes a line of Light Truck Tires most of them will have the name LTX. The new Defender LTX, LTX M/S2, LTX A/S and the LTX AT2 and the X Radial LT2 sold exclusively at the Wholesle Clubs. Michelin no longer makes the Agilis "C" designated for Commercial applications. The Agilis was a commercial light van tire reinforced to stand up to heavy loads.
The Michelin XPS Rib is our most durable light truck tire we make in a 16" we make for RV applications. It is an on-road, retreadable commercial tire constructed with steel casing for durability to stay on the job.
.
A p-metric and Euro Metric would be used in applications such as SUV for a more car like ride.
LT (light truck) tires are designed around the same basic rules as commercial tires. They have sufficient reserve capacity factored into the formulas used to designate their max load capacity.

P-metric and Euro metric tires, however, are not designed using the same set of rules. Their sizing system is designed for use on personal use vehicles which are normally less likely to be overloaded compared to a truck or commercial vehicle.

When looking at the max load of P-metric or Euro metric tires being used on light truck type applications (full size van, SUV, pickup truck, minivan, etc) the tire's max load must be reduced by 9%. "





So IMO this means you should consider the Defender LTX 235/75R15 XL as a passenger tire. It is designed for higher inflation and therefore higher load capacity than a normal "standard load" passenger tire but if you use it in trailer application (which it is not intended for) you must de-rate that load.
I will not go into the discussion of warranty being void if the tire is used inappropriately as others have their opinions on that topic.




I hope but will not hold my breath, that this statement from Michelin will settle the questions from many.
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Old 01-08-2016, 05:31 PM   #101
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Tireman9,

Thank you for this feedback.

When they mention the XPS Rib is for RV applications, is that both motorhomes and travel trailers (multi-axle)? I ask this because some people say RV for motorhomes and not trailers.
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Old 01-09-2016, 09:30 AM   #102
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TheCabin, I realize you are asking Tireman9, but since our AS is the same length as yours, I thought I'd share this with you. In the Spring, 2011, we upgraded our axles to 3500 lb. axles to accommodate a 16" wheel and purchased Michelin XPS 16" tires and couldn't have been more pleased! We have had no issues whatsoever and have been able to travel down the highways relatively carefree and stress free. We will soon be replacing these tires do to aging out and plan to put the same type tires on again.

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Old 01-09-2016, 05:19 PM   #103
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Air Cruiser, thank you for your comment. TireRack list the XPS Rib LT225/75R16 at 29.4" diameter which I guess should fit ours too. Since Michelin considers the XPS Rib suitable for RVs (#100), I am more interested except for the 80 psi. Still curious if they will warranty them on trailers.
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Old 01-09-2016, 05:24 PM   #104
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Hi there. Michelin customer service line would likely be happy to answer that one. It will be interesting to see what you learn.
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Old 01-09-2016, 09:44 PM   #105
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Just wanted to chime in so it will be easier to get updates on this thread as people start to post their results later this year when the new Michelin Defenders come out for us 15" wheel users. I'm just barely getting by with my GYM ST tires by changing them out every 2 years. 10,000 miles is maximum before the tire tread starts to show signs of separation. Can't wait to hear how good the new Michelins will be for the 15" wheels.
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Old 01-10-2016, 03:05 PM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCabin View Post
Tireman9,

Thank you for this feedback.

When they mention the XPS Rib is for RV applications, is that both motorhomes and travel trailers (multi-axle)? I ask this because some people say RV for motorhomes and not trailers.

I feel that this thread is a discussion on RV trailers. In my experience trailers appear to start life with a very small load capacity margin while Class-C Rvs for the most part are being delivered with LT tires that have better speed capability and many will have a reasonable load capacity as they come with LR-C tires to start with.
Class-C motorhomes do not have the Interply Shear issue seen on multi axle trailer so even with the same static load I would expect a tire in motorhome application to last longer than an identical tire in multi-axle trailer application.

XPS-Rib is probably reasonable for both applications as ling as actual load is taken into consideration.
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Old 01-11-2016, 09:55 AM   #107
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Hi there. Michelin customer service line would likely be happy to answer that one. It will be interesting to see what you learn.
I have 15" Michelins on my 2013 30' International now. They are great tires. No anxiety about keeping to 65 MP and under and even though I check them religiously having acquired the habit with the POS GYM tires I rarely have to add air,and when I do it is no more than 1 or 2 psi.
Michelin LTX MS/2 P235 R/15 T- 108 2,183 lbs at 50 Psi.
At that inflation it give you a nice ride.
The issue of the sidewall torque is over hyped with these tires. You get much more sidewall stress going around a sharp curve with a loaded pick up or banging into a curb.These tires are tough and can take it.

The ST standards were written when tire technologie was not as advanced as it is today and has not been updated. However due to the lawyer class being forever on the prowl for an easy buck the tire manufactures are cautious with what they advertise.
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Old 01-11-2016, 01:44 PM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by franklyfrank View Post
I have 15" Michelins on my 2013 30' International now. They are great tires. No anxiety about keeping to 65 MP and under and even though I check them religiously having acquired the habit with the POS GYM tires I rarely have to add air,and when I do it is no more than 1 or 2 psi.
Michelin LTX MS/2 P235 R/15 T- 108 2,183 lbs at 50 Psi.
At that inflation it give you a nice ride.
The issue of the sidewall torque is over hyped with these tires. You get much more sidewall stress going around a sharp curve with a loaded pick up or banging into a curb.These tires are tough and can take it.

The ST standards were written when tire technologie was not as advanced as it is today and has not been updated. However due to the lawyer class being forever on the prowl for an easy buck the tire manufactures are cautious with what they advertise.
Did you take the trailer to the tire dealer to get them mounted or did you just take the wheels in?
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Old 01-12-2016, 06:01 AM   #109
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Note that the sidewall pressure of the Michelin LTX (P) 235/75R15 XL tire of 2,183 pounds @ 50 psi must be derated to 1,985 pounds load for trailer use.

****************************************

49 CFR 571.110
Tire selection and rims and motor home/recreation vehicle trailer load carrying capacity information for motor vehicles with a GVWR of 4,536 kilograms (10,000 pounds) or less.

S4.2.2.1
Except as provided in S4.2.2.2, the sum of the maximum load ratings of the tires fitted to an axle shall not be less than the GAWR of the axle system as specified on the vehicle's certification label required by 49 CFR part 567. If the certification label shows more than one GAWR for the axle system, the sum shall be not less than the GAWR corresponding to the size designation of the tires fitted to the axle.

S4.2.2.2
When passenger car tires are installed on an MPV, truck, bus, or trailer, each tire's load rating is reduced by dividing it by 1.10 before determining, under S4.2.2.1, the sum of the maximum load ratings of the tires fitted to an axle.

S4.2.2.3
(a) For vehicles, except trailers with no designated seating positions, equipped with passenger car tires, the vehicle normal load on the tire shall be no greater than 94 percent of the derated load rating at the vehicle manufacturer's recommended cold inflation pressure for that tire.
(b) For vehicles, except trailers with no designated seating positions, equipped with LT tires, the vehicle normal load on the tire shall be no greater than 94 percent of the load rating at the vehicle manufacturer's recommended cold inflation pressure for that tire.

************************************************

Thus two Michelin LTX (P) 235/75R15 XL tires are rated less than the 4,500 pound axle rating at the full side wall number of 2,183 pounds let alone the required lower use number of 1,983 pounds.

I would suggest that individual wheel weights be obtained and certified at your maximum loaded condition going camping as proof the individual tires were not overloaded in case of a failure resulting in damage to the trailer. Insurance companies have no trouble collecting premiums, but they look for ways to weasel out of paying claims. A knowingly overloaded tire condition could allow them to walk away from paying let alone being below the axle rating.....

Airstream installed on 2014 and earlier Classics with 5,000 pound rated axles the GYM ST225/75R15D rated 2,540 pounds @ 65 psi. So the weak link was the axle.

I upgraded our 2014 31' Classic to the Michelin LT225/75R16/E LTX M/S2 tires rated 2,680 pounds @ 80 psi and mounted on the SenDel T03-66655T wheels rated 3,580 pounds @ 80 psi. These tires and wheels are on display at the entrance to the Airstream Service Center at the factory and approved for all dual axle trailers 25' and longer and installed on the Eddie Bauer models and 2015 and later 30' and longer Classics.
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Old 01-12-2016, 07:25 AM   #110
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A point on pressure that I learned here-
The pressure that the Michelin LTX M/S2 P235/75R15XL 108T carries its rated load is 41 PSI. The maximum pressure is 50 PSI. There is no load capacity increase above 41 PSI.
Tire Tech Information - Tire Specs Explained: Maximum Load
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Old 01-12-2016, 08:57 AM   #111
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Did you take the trailer to the tire dealer to get them mounted or did you just take the wheels in?
I drove the trailer to Tire King and had the tires switched out. They had to order the 15" tires because it is not a stock item.
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Old 01-13-2016, 12:45 AM   #112
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If I took the 4,500 rating per axle seriously, I'd think I could load up the trailer until it weighed 9,000 pounds. However, the max permitted gross weight is 7,600. Thus, it seems the axle ratings are mostly irrelevant to this discussion. That said, weighing the trailer to be sure of the weights to ensure I don't exceed the tire rating (or de-rating) on any wheel or axle is sound advice.
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