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Old 01-14-2016, 02:03 PM   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevesuemac View Post
i read it differently - that the full load capacity (1985# de-rated for use on a trailer) is reached at 41psi - you don't get less load at 50, but you don't gain load capacity above 41 either.
exactly!
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Old 01-14-2016, 05:22 PM   #128
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That statement by Michelin is very interesting. Michelin has a reputation of marching to a different drummer than all other tire companies and Industry Standards organizations.

I will go back to my Michelin contact and try and get a Load/Inflation chart for the subject tire. I will also ask why they chose to go to 50 rather than the industry standard of 41. They may not answer the 2nd question as I am sure their customer service people simply go on what they are told. Will report back what I learn, if anything.
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Old 01-14-2016, 05:54 PM   #129
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I haven't read this whole thread but very interested in the Micheline Defender Tire. Question is why not run at full 50psi pressure?
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Old 01-14-2016, 07:03 PM   #130
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Following with interest......
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Old 01-14-2016, 09:50 PM   #131
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So you think that the statement that this tire will carry its maximum load of 2183 lbs at its maximum pressure of 50 psi is a true statement?

Like it almost says on the tire.

My first set of 15" LTX were LT tires. My next set of. 15" LTX are P tires. They look the same. The load ratings differ by exactly the derating factor. I think Michelin decided to go with the P rating so it shows a higher load rating on the sidewall for the SUV market. Who makes trucks with 15" wheels?
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Old 01-14-2016, 10:25 PM   #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill M. View Post
So you think that the statement that this tire will carry its maximum load of 2183 lbs at its maximum pressure of 50 psi is a true statement?

Like it almost says on the tire.

...snip...

Perhaps they are physically capable and Tireman or Capri could speak to that. But when used on a trailer, DOT requires they not take on more than 90% of the stated maximum (Switz has posted the specific code multiple times for reference).
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Old 01-15-2016, 04:46 AM   #133
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While the maximum load can be carried at 41 psi in the prior generation 15" Michelins being discussed, I think Andy Thomson at CanAm suggests the 44 psi to slightly stiffen the side wall of the tire to reduce flex from side loads created by gusts of wind or a passing truck. He also suggested taking the Mercedes tires up to 44 psi (max pressure is 51 psi and is usually in the mid 30s for psi) for sidewall stability.

I know from driving the 25FB International Serenity (had a Hensley hitch installed) home from Los Angles to Phoenix, that the trailer was stable with that tire pressure. When I got into Arizona, I was still driving at 55 mph (it was my first big trailer towing experience and (due to a long story) it was in the wee hours of the morning) while the big rigs passed at speeds of the posted 75 mph and higher.

I use the same 44 psi on the 23D (same Hensley hitch installed) with these same model 15" Michelin tires and it is very stable.
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Old 01-15-2016, 03:40 PM   #134
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Max load at xxx inflation

It might help clarify things if someone could post the "regulatory" Load & Inflation information rather than the extra info seen in the "50 psi post".

If you look at my post #114 you will see the small print (usually down near the rim) that gives the Max load capacity in Kg (lbs) at inflation kpa (psi)

Given that the European industry standard "ETRTO" is very clear that a 235/75R15 Reinf or (XL) is a 109 load index at 1030 kg when inflated to 290 kpa. This translates to 2270.761# at 42.06 using normal metric to std units. Now the rounding can change the lbs & psi by a bit but not 8 psi.

I think we will see that the regulatory load & inflation information on the Michelin Defender will say something like Max Load 1030 Kg (2270 lbs) at 290 kpa (42 psi).

If the regulatory marking says 2270 lbs and 50 psi then somehow Michelin would be implying that they are making a tire that is not as strong as the rest of the tires made in Europe, which I doubt would be the case.

Now maybe Michelin is somehow suggesting that the tire should be run at 50, which would provide a larger margin for air loss but that would be a first.

A downside of running at 50 would be a harder ride which I do not think people want.
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Old 01-15-2016, 03:47 PM   #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Top View Post
Bill,
I have these same tires, as you know. We've argued this 41 vs 50 PSI thing for years.
The MAX LOAD and MAX PRESSURE are two different lines. They are separate.


It does not say MAX LOAD AT 50 PSI.

Extra Load tires achieve their rated load capacity at 41 PSI.
What Michelin tire is the picture of? Is it the new "Defender" 235/75R15 XL?

Doesn't seem to be the same tire as the picture clearly shows the size as "P235/75R15"
Id there a "Service description" after the 15?
Service Description consists of the Load index a 109 on the Defender is being reported. The 2nd part of the Service Description is a letter for the Speed i.e. L, M ...S, T, H etc

The picture only shows part of the tire size.
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Old 01-15-2016, 04:05 PM   #136
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What size is it?

I went back and did a quick review of many of the posts in this thread. We continue to talk but seem to fail to communicate.

Providing the complete tire size is critical. I covered this in dept in my blog post of Sept 14 2011.
Here is part of that post
"A quick review of some on-line RV forums show the problem of incomplete tire size information. Current posts mention:
225/75R-16E 235/80R 16s 275/70/22.5 12R22.5 315/80R22.5 235/80 22.5 LT235/85R16E 225/75R/16E 235/80R16E
None of these “sizes” provide what I consider the complete size nomenclature."

I provided some facts as examples as I tried to show that seemingly same tire sizes actually have different speed, load and inflation capabilities
"P235/75R15 105S (Standard Load -35 psi @ max load)
2028# 35 psi 112mph on a Passenger car
1844# 35 psi 112mph on a SUV, P/U or trailer (no Dual)

LT235/75R15 101/104Q LRC
1985#single 1820# Dual 50 psi 99mph

LT235/75R15 LRC
1512#single 1377# Dual 50 psi 85mph

ST235/75R15 LRC
2340#single 2040# Dual 50 psi 65mph"

I think you can see that simply saying 235/75R15 is not sufficient and will lead to confusion. The use of partial information has resulted in this thread growing to over 100 posts, many including information that really applies to tires other than the Michelin LTX 235/75R15 109T XL

IMO in trailer or RV application this tire is rated for 2064 when inflated to a minimum cold inflation of 42 psi. BUT this assumes the regulatory marking on the Defender indicates 2270 lbs at 42 psi. Since I have not seen the actual marking on the subject tire my numbers may be off by +/- 10kg.
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Old 01-15-2016, 06:10 PM   #137
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Legal Implications installing P, LT tires on a TT

Quote:
Originally Posted by switz View Post
Note that the sidewall pressure of the Michelin LTX (P) 235/75R15 XL tire of 2,183 pounds @ 50 psi must be derated to 1,985 pounds load for trailer use.

****************************************

49 CFR 571.110
Tire selection and rims and motor home/recreation vehicle trailer load carrying capacity information for motor vehicles with a GVWR of 4,536 kilograms (10,000 pounds) or less.

S4.2.2.1
Except as provided in S4.2.2.2, the sum of the maximum load ratings of the tires fitted to an axle shall not be less than the GAWR of the axle system as specified on the vehicle's certification label required by 49 CFR part 567. If the certification label shows more than one GAWR for the axle system, the sum shall be not less than the GAWR corresponding to the size designation of the tires fitted to the axle.

S4.2.2.2
When passenger car tires are installed on an MPV, truck, bus, or trailer, each tire's load rating is reduced by dividing it by 1.10 before determining, under S4.2.2.1, the sum of the maximum load ratings of the tires fitted to an axle.

S4.2.2.3
(a) For vehicles, except trailers with no designated seating positions, equipped with passenger car tires, the vehicle normal load on the tire shall be no greater than 94 percent of the derated load rating at the vehicle manufacturer's recommended cold inflation pressure for that tire.
(b) For vehicles, except trailers with no designated seating positions, equipped with LT tires, the vehicle normal load on the tire shall be no greater than 94 percent of the load rating at the vehicle manufacturer's recommended cold inflation pressure for that tire.

************************************************

Thus two Michelin LTX (P) 235/75R15 XL tires are rated less than the 4,500 pound axle rating at the full side wall number of 2,183 pounds let alone the required lower use number of 1,983 pounds.

I would suggest that individual wheel weights be obtained and certified at your maximum loaded condition going camping as proof the individual tires were not overloaded in case of a failure resulting in damage to the trailer. Insurance companies have no trouble collecting premiums, but they look for ways to weasel out of paying claims. A knowingly overloaded tire condition could allow them to walk away from paying let alone being below the axle rating.....

Airstream installed on 2014 and earlier Classics with 5,000 pound rated axles the GYM ST225/75R15D rated 2,540 pounds @ 65 psi. So the weak link was the axle.

I upgraded our 2014 31' Classic to the Michelin LT225/75R16/E LTX M/S2 tires rated 2,680 pounds @ 80 psi and mounted on the SenDel T03-66655T wheels rated 3,580 pounds @ 80 psi. These tires and wheels are on display at the entrance to the Airstream Service Center at the factory and approved for all dual axle trailers 25' and longer and installed on the Eddie Bauer models and 2015 and later 30' and longer Classics.
greetings,

Since you have been quoting some legal articles about tire regulations and so on and insurance adjusters looking on overloaded tires and so on, I have been wondering about any implications we may have by mounting passenger or light truck tires on a travel trailer.

My question comes after Big O Tires in Yuma told me today that legally they will not mount the Michelin tires on our Airstream because they are not ST tires.

So how you guys get it done? Also, could be any legal implication by having an accident due to a tire blowup by not having the correct tire designation? ST for example?

thank you all the tire specialists for making this thread so educational about tires.

thank you,

Miguel
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Old 01-15-2016, 06:30 PM   #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tireman9 View Post
What Michelin tire is the picture of? Is it the new "Defender" 235/75R15 XL?
No.
Doesn't seem to be the same tire as the picture clearly shows the size as "P235/75R15"
Id there a "Service description" after the 15?
Service Description consists of the Load index a 109 on the Defender is being reported. The 2nd part of the Service Description is a letter for the Speed i.e. L, M ...S, T, H etc

The picture only shows part of the tire size.
We've veered way off course.

Have a good weekend!
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Old 01-15-2016, 07:16 PM   #139
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OK, you guys have got to cut the BS! Is the Michelin Defender 15" tire a good replacement tire for a 25ft Airstream weighing less than 7500 lbs loader capable of handling that trailer safely? Yes or no!
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Old 01-15-2016, 07:36 PM   #140
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Quote:
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OK, you guys have got to cut the BS! Is the Michelin Defender 15" tire a good replacement tire for a 25ft Airstream weighing less than 7500 lbs loader capable of handling that trailer safely? Yes or no!
Yes, it is.
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