Keep losing tires

[CapriRacer]

Originally Posted by thinder

I keep losing tires. Same side of the trailer. Started with a cheaper bias ply it blew out, then replaced with a Carlisle, then it blew on the same axle and position. So I replaced all four again this time with Goodyear endurance, E rated trailer (as all the others were), tires.

Today, About 400 miles later, tire blown with side wall completely gone. Same side but this time the forward axle. All pressures checked and were at 76psi or greater when we left on Thursday afternoon. No visible scrubbing on the tire tread hoop that remains.

Trailer is '86 excella 31' 2 axles 7400lbs.

Anyone have any ideas? Could a wheel have a problem that could cause this?

The biggest problem is sorting out which tires failed because of road hazards (the curb side is the most likely to pick up debris!) and those caused by fatique.

Now your last failure sounded like a road hazard. A fatigue failure generally loses the top belt and the tread over it and leaves the rest of the casing (bottom belt and sidewalls) intact. However even a little running on that separated tires may result in an additional road hazard thereby confusing the source.

[thinder]

Originally Posted by cwf

No TPMS???? 70MPH??? U a brave person!!! Trash trailer aluminum?

Scenarios
Tire 1 blew... damaged tire 2.
TPMS could have warned u

Trash damaged tire 1... lost air slowly.. tire 2 blew as air leak by debris flung up by tire 1
TPMS could have warned u

Low tire pressure from start..overheated, failed one at a time
TPMS could have warned u

Our triple lost rear starboard tire,, damaged aluminum.. ripped off wheel well trim. Got flagged down by passing truck...
TPMS could have warned ME!

Yes, I now have 6 tire sensors and monitor... 4 years on system... still clicking...

We don't pull over 60... but have had to speed up to 70, but back to 60 within a minute... usually this is when entering highway... then settle down again...

Don't overlook loose bearings..
Or out of balance (yes, Mr. Tire guy...you will balance OUR trailer tires)

Don't overlook potentially trailer sway...

Can't change the physics...

I only lost one tire.

All 4 tires were brand new at the start of this trip. Pressure was 76 when installed a little over a week ago, and rechecked and hour before we left on Thursday. I did not check prior to coming home.

Yes TPMS could have warned me. But I would still be in the same situation. The third flat on the same side with no explanation.

Speed rating on the Goodyear endurance is 87mph. Is that not a reliable number?

Tires are in balance, bearings are at proper pre-load. I've had zero discernible trailer sway.

[Tireman9]

Sidewall failure are almost always due to air leak.
Air leak can be caused by cracked wheel,
bent rim that allows air leak of a small "puff" once per revolution,
Improper torque on nut on bolt in metal valves
Over or under tight valve core (only 2 in lb as I recall) I will check
No metal valve cap
Leaking valve core See my blog posts on valves.

[Caffeinated]

Following

Mike

[thinder]

Originally Posted by Tireman9

Sidewall failure are almost always due to air leak.
Air leak can be caused by cracked wheel,
bent rim that allows air leak of a small "puff" once per revolution,
Improper torque on nut on bolt in metal valves
Over or under tight valve core (only 2 in lb as I recall) I will check
No metal valve cap
Leaking valve core See my blog posts on valves.

I'm going to put a run out dial on the rim and check run out. I'm also going to soap up the valve stem and see if it's bubbling. It definitely doesn't have metal valve caps. I'm not sure how to find a crack in the wheel. I'm guessing I could try to fab up some sort of magnet and iron fillings.

[Phoenix]

Note: Looks like Goodyear Endurance (GYE) tire failures are starting to appear on AirForums. Perhaps, someone should start a new thread where GYE owners can consolidate their experiences.

[CapriRacer]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

Note: Looks like Goodyear Endurance (GYE) tire failures are starting to appear on AirForums. Perhaps, someone should start a new thread where GYE owners can consolidate their experiences.

Perhaps that someone should be you - but I did a quick look and didn't find any. Since you know which thread reported them, you should start the thread with links to the reports.

Personally, I am very interested in this as the GYE's have only been on the market - oh - 9 months or so, so I think the only reports should be of road hazard related failures . It's way too soon for a real endurance failure (ha, ha! Get it? I crack myself up!)

[Tireman9]

I agree with Capri.
It would also help if a couple of pictures were posted of the failed tire. This might help weed out some of the failures that are not the fault of tire construction (such as air leak).

I did an "autopsy" on a real Run Low Flex failure of a GYM on an Airstream in July of 2012 where I identified the physical evidence and "proof" the tire was run low on air and the failure wasn't caused by magic or the zip code of the tire plant :-)

[thinder]

OK,

Did some looking. The wheel is straight, no wobble. But I did lay a straight edge across the tires parallel to the length of the trailer and the wheels on that side seem to be toe-out a bit. the straight edge laying on the back tire is about 1/2" out side of the rear of the front tire.

Could this be a cause of my failure? I would think it would cause excessive wear (which I haven't noticed) but could it lead to a failure?

[Tireman9]

Originally Posted by thinder

OK,

Did some looking. The wheel is straight, no wobble. But I did lay a straight edge across the tires parallel to the length of the trailer and the wheels on that side seem to be toe-out a bit. the straight edge laying on the back tire is about 1/2" out side of the rear of the front tire.

Could this be a cause of my failure? I would think it would cause excessive wear (which I haven't noticed) but could it lead to a failure?

What did you see when you did the "Free Spin" inspection?

[thinder]

Originally Posted by Tireman9

What did you see when you did the "Free Spin" inspection?

What is a "free spin" inspection?

[CapriRacer]

Originally Posted by thinder

OK,

Did some looking. The wheel is straight, no wobble. But I did lay a straight edge across the tires parallel to the length of the trailer and the wheels on that side seem to be toe-out a bit. the straight edge laying on the back tire is about 1/2" out side of the rear of the front tire.

Could this be a cause of my failure? I would think it would cause excessive wear (which I haven't noticed) but could it lead to a failure?

Yes, it could. The excessive toe could be generating heat which is leading to a failure.

[davejay]

Hey,
If the tire problem is the same tire every time, i d be checking your brakes, bearings,(unlikely if they re new) maybe a bent wheel. But if you got a higher rated tire on now , e rated is what's on me diesal excursion . That s a lot of tire , and it s a hard tire . As in tough on the frame of your unit.
Have you had the chance to look at the tires before they blow. The face of the tire will tell the story. If the tire has a ragged edge to it. Meaning, put your hand on the tread face, and draw your hand toward you. It should feel smooth. If it feels like an edge, you may have an alignment problem. To blow one tire out of 4 has got to be pretty obvious to see. A toe in or out really puts a strain on the sidewalks of a tire . The lighter the rated tire, the quicker it will blow. My point is, putting an E rated tire on could fix the problem, if your problem is overloading. But if you got an alignment problem. It will take longer to fail, but when it does, the 8 ply tire is going do do some damage. My guess is a toe problem. A quick way to tell is to take a string, and hold it to the sidewall of the front tire, stretch it to the rear tire, creating a line all 4 points of the sidewalks of both tires should touch that string. My guess is you will find one sidewall that doesn't touch the string. This is a very crude way of checking, but it'll give some idea of where your problem is . Make sure your trailor is going straight. You don t want your axles with an induced twist in them. Drive straight for about 25 feet. That ll straighten it out. An 1/8 of an inch is nothing. But if that string is 1/2 inch or more away there's your problem. Those other three tires are dragging that tire down the road thus heat, thus failure. Hope this is of some help. DJ

[thinder]

Originally Posted by davejay

Hey,

If the tire problem is the same tire every time, i d be checking your brakes, bearings,(unlikely if they re new) maybe a bent wheel. But if you got a higher rated tire on now , e rated is what's on me diesal excursion . That s a lot of tire , and it s a hard tire . As in tough on the frame of your unit.

Have you had the chance to look at the tires before they blow. The face of the tire will tell the story. If the tire has a ragged edge to it. Meaning, put your hand on the tread face, and draw your hand toward you. It should feel smooth. If it feels like an edge, you may have an alignment problem. To blow one tire out of 4 has got to be pretty obvious to see. A toe in or out really puts a strain on the sidewalks of a tire . The lighter the rated tire, the quicker it will blow. My point is, putting an E rated tire on could fix the problem, if your problem is overloading. But if you got an alignment problem. It will take longer to fail, but when it does, the 8 ply tire is going do do some damage. My guess is a toe problem. A quick way to tell is to take a string, and hold it to the sidewall of the front tire, stretch it to the rear tire, creating a line all 4 points of the sidewalks of both tires should touch that string. My guess is you will find one sidewall that doesn't touch the string. This is a very crude way of checking, but it'll give some idea of where your problem is . Make sure your trailor is going straight. You don t want your axles with an induced twist in them. Drive straight for about 25 feet. That ll straighten it out. An 1/8 of an inch is nothing. But if that string is 1/2 inch or more away there's your problem. Those other three tires are dragging that tire down the road thus heat, thus failure. Hope this is of some help. DJ

Thanks DJ, but I've checked all of those things already. The only thing that looks suspicious is the toe. But it's backed into a spot so I need to pull it straight forward to verify. But I'm thinking to toe out on that side is due to backing it in to its spot, and will remedy when I pull forward. As I stated before the cap of the tire was still in place and looked completely unworn.

[CapriRacer]

I'm getting the impression we may be chasing a wild goose. Ya' see, tires can fail for a variety of reasons, but most failure modes are caused by things you can't avoid. For the sake of discussion, we'll call them "Road Hazards".

Put another way, there is only one failure mode that should be of concern. It's called "Tread Separation" and its characteristic is that the top belt detaches from the bottom belt. Initially, this manifests itself as a bulge in the tread - usually in one of the shoulders. Rubbing your hand (use a glove!) over the tread surface can reveal this. Also, this will develop into localized wear in the shoulder in one spot (about 10" long). You can also feel a vibration that gets worse over time.

If allowed to continue, the belt will detach enough that centrifugal force will rip off the top belt and the tread rubber over it leaving behind the bottom belt and the sidewall largely intact. Operating the tire further can result in further damage to what remains, but the characteristic you are looking for is the missing top belt.

The timeframe between the tread separation starting and complete detachment is on the order of several hundred miles.

If we aren't discussing tires that fail in this manner, then we are trying to solve a problem for which there no solution.

And just so everyone understands, the most vulnerable position to road hazards - regardless of vehicle - is the curb side rear. The fact that it is not the front is because the front tires kick up debris that gets trapped by the rears. Not to mention that the rear tires traverse a smaller arc than the fronts, so the rears tend to hit the curb more often.

[perryg114]

I try to make a habit of checking tires every time I stop. You can feel tires and hubs and tell a lot. If a tire is running hotter than the others then you know something is wrong. You can do this with your hand. If the rim is hot and the tire is not then you got bearing or brake problems. If just the tire is hot look for low pressure or high loads. If your trailer is not level it will put a lot more stress on the tires on the low end. They will run hot. Look at the tread. If it is feathered then you have alignment issues. I run BF Goodrich 235/75 XL15 tires and they have been great and they are human rated not hay wagon rated like trailer tires. Michelin makes a similar tire rated for about 2000 lbs each. They do this at 50psi so there is a lot less pressure to explode causing damage. Trailer tires typically are less heavy but carry more load and pressure. Cheap thin tires with exaggerated load rating by boosting pressure which stresses an already weak tire.

Perry

[thinder]

Originally Posted by CapriRacer

I'm getting the impression we may be chasing a wild goose. Ya' see, tires can fail for a variety of reasons, but most failure modes are caused by things you can't avoid. For the sake of discussion, we'll call them "Road Hazards".

Put another way, there is only one failure mode that should be of concern. It's called "Tread Separation" and its characteristic is that the top belt detaches from the bottom belt. Initially, this manifests itself as a bulge in the tread - usually in one of the shoulders. Rubbing your hand (use a glove!) over the tread surface can reveal this. Also, this will develop into localized wear in the shoulder in one spot (about 10" long). You can also feel a vibration that gets worse over time.

If allowed to continue, the belt will detach enough that centrifugal force will rip off the top belt and the tread rubber over it leaving behind the bottom belt and the sidewall largely intact. Operating the tire further can result in further damage to what remains, but the characteristic you are looking for is the missing top belt.

The timeframe between the tread separation starting and complete detachment is on the order of several hundred miles.

If we aren't discussing tires that fail in this manner, then we are trying to solve a problem for which there no solution.

And just so everyone understands, the most vulnerable position to road hazards - regardless of vehicle - is the curb side rear. The fact that it is not the front is because the front tires kick up debris that gets trapped by the rears. Not to mention that the rear tires traverse a smaller arc than the fronts, so the rears tend to hit the curb more often.

I'm thinking you may be right. It seems like a pattern but in reality it very well could just be bad luck.

[jcanavera]

Originally Posted by CapriRacer

I'm getting the impression we may be chasing a wild goose. Ya' see, tires can fail for a variety of reasons, but most failure modes are caused by things you can't avoid. For the sake of discussion, we'll call them "Road Hazards".

Put another way, there is only one failure mode that should be of concern. It's called "Tread Separation" and its characteristic is that the top belt detaches from the bottom belt. Initially, this manifests itself as a bulge in the tread - usually in one of the shoulders. Rubbing your hand (use a glove!) over the tread surface can reveal this. Also, this will develop into localized wear in the shoulder in one spot (about 10" long). You can also feel a vibration that gets worse over time.

If allowed to continue, the belt will detach enough that centrifugal force will rip off the top belt and the tread rubber over it leaving behind the bottom belt and the sidewall largely intact. Operating the tire further can result in further damage to what remains, but the characteristic you are looking for is the missing top belt.

The timeframe between the tread separation starting and complete detachment is on the order of several hundred miles.

.

Here's a couple classic examples that occurred with the front axle tires on my Classic. I have the bad tires standing next to a tire from the same side of the trailer that didn't fail. These were Maxxis E rated ST tires, beginning of their 4th year of use. I caught the double failure after returning from the first trip of the season. I had just backed into the drive and was blocking the wheels when I noticed the distention of the tires. Trailer stored inside out of the sun, 80 psi pressure.

This was my second set of ST tires experiencing failure, the first being the D rated Marathon with the tread separating in the middle of one tire at the end of the 3rd season of use. 65 psi pressures on those tires. I'm sort of a tire nut so I've always been careful about pressure and loads. I can only chock it up to the fact that with my heavy 30' slide out, an ST tire becomes unreliable sometime in the 3-4 season range. The solution was either to replace the ST's more frequently or go to an 16" LT. Economically it was more cost justifiable to go to the 16" LT tires. Thankfully in each case I caught the failures prior to ST's blowing out on the road. I'm in year 5 of use on the Michelin 16" LT tires.

Jack

[switz]

Looks like it was your "lucky" day to catch the pending failures before they generated lots of custom metal work.

[thinder]

Hey Tireman9,

What is the critical temp for these tires? I shoot them regularly with a laser thermometer when I'm pulling and I'm curious what temp leads to failure. I think the hottest I saw on my bias plys was 130F