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Old 03-06-2013, 01:26 PM   #21
BAB
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Jammer: RE your question on spending $ on other aspects besides tires/wheels. Absolutely. Before I even ordered my trailer I spent a LOT of time on AirForums. That led to ordering a ProPride 3P for it. Anything related to safety, I've upgraded -- even replacing my safety chains, transfer switch, converter/charger, water pressure accumulator, DirecLink controller (had a Prodigy P3....but changed anyway). NOTHING is more important to me than my safety and those who are on the highway with me. There are a number of folks on this Forum (and I could name them) for whom I have great respect. And, I think most people here are in search of learning from the experiences of others. There'll always be a couple of sides to each issue, and ultimately I make the call based on all the data/opinions/expertise.
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Old 03-06-2013, 01:32 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BAB View Post
Jammer: RE your question on spending $ on other aspects besides tires/wheels. Absolutely. Before I even ordered my trailer I spent a LOT of time on AirForums. That led to ordering a ProPride 3P for it. Anything related to safety, I've upgraded -- even replacing my safety chains, transfer switch, converter/charger, water pressure accumulator, DirecLink controller (had a Prodigy P3....but changed anyway). NOTHING is more important to me than my safety and those who are on the highway with me. There are a number of folks on this Forum (and I could name them) for whom I have great respect. And, I think most people here are in search of learning from the experiences of others. There'll always be a couple of sides to each issue, and ultimately I make the call based on all the data/opinions/expertise.
We just switched to the ProPride on our Bambi.
I only got interested after Every Single Person who owned one had the same thing to say about it....
How could I ignore all that advice?
I am simply amazed at the difference it makes towing!
Money well spent....
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Old 03-06-2013, 02:04 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Bruce B View Post
Once again, the service manager for the largest Airstream dealership in the country says that he would put them on his own trailer. He can put on anything, he recommends that you stay with the Marathons! They sell lots of tires and He has to answer to customers if something goes wrong!
That is a statistical slice that none of us can match with our personal
knowledge, internet reviews or no.
He also has a whole lot full of those tires on trailers to sell. First rule of sales is you never disparage your own product.

Not sure where some of these other facts are coming from. But when the tire import tariff began in September 26, 2009 production was moved back to the US and when it expired in September 26, 2012 it immediately moved back to China.

http://www.tirebusiness.com/article/...mports-surging
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Old 03-06-2013, 02:29 PM   #24
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He also has a whole lot full of those tires on trailers to sell. First rule of sales is you never disparage your own product.

Not sure where some of these other facts are coming from. But when the tire import tariff began in September 26, 2009 production was moved back to the US and when it expired in September 26, 2012 it immediately moved back to China.

http://www.tirebusiness.com/article/...mports-surging
I have not read your link yet but I have a couple of points.

My "other facts" come from people in the tire industry I know through my business.

My Marathons (made in China) have a production date of mid 2011 well before the import tarrif expired. Clearly Goodyear did not move Marathon production from and to China for tarrif reasons alone if at all.

As to the dealer in question, why would he sell only what was installed on the trailer new if he was seeing reliability issues with it? Can you imagine the profit center he could open up if he jumped on the bandwagon and just began replacing all Marathons with 16" Michelins? He could make a small fortune!
No he sells what works, plain and simple. Not everything is a conspiracy.

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Old 03-06-2013, 03:40 PM   #25
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Then how do you answer or explain all the failures reported here and on every other RV forum. We're not making this stuff up.
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Old 03-06-2013, 03:55 PM   #26
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Phoenix,
I'm trying to keep a very open mind here. And I want you to know that whatever I say here is in every aspect might be the devil's advocate, or just trying to play the other side fairly. And it is in no way a personal attack. I would have the same discussion (argument) with my friends over beer!

I honestly don't know if the Marathon tires are better than the anything else. But what I'm trying to point out is that Marathon are absolutely the most popular tire put on trailers. If 75% of all consumer level trailers come with Goodyear Marathon tires, it's going to skew the results based on complaints. All things equal, GYM tires would create at least 3 times the complaints, blowouts, etc. Just for the fact that they're so popular.

Can you point to where it says they removed the Star Rating because there were too many negative comments? I see there's no star rating, but I don't see where it says why.

According to the Tirerack.com website:
Goodyear Marathon Radial: 97 reviews with an average score of 7.14
Michelin LTX M/S: 2139 reviews, score 8.3

Now I'm not going to read every single review, but there's plenty of good reviews for the Marathon. I don't think it's fair to just pick a nasty one and post it here without reading all 97 reviews, and figuring out which ones are good and which are bad. I'd say they're about 12% worse based on the scores.

Furthermore, you'd have to read all 2139 reviews of the Michelin, and just use the reviews where they used the tire on a travel trailer. Because this tire is designed for a light truck, I would guess that 99% of the reviews don't apply, and you can't compare that scoring system to the one for the Marathon.

There's also a good article on why you should use ST tires on a trailer:
Tire Tech Information - Trailer Tires vs. Passenger Vehicle Tires
It's not exactly about ST vs. LT, but good information.

-Kevin
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Old 03-06-2013, 04:03 PM   #27
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Then how do you answer or explain all the failures reported here and on every other RV forum. We're not making this stuff up.
Because every Airstream trailer comes with them stock.
Almost every other RV comes with them stock.

You can't walk into the GOP and do a poll on who is republican.

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Old 03-06-2013, 04:06 PM   #28
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Bruce, I believe a big part of it is the US just doesn't have the capacity anymore to make enough tires and they still had to supplement US production. The article is from a tire industry watch group shows tire production in China skyrocketed as soon as the tariff expired. So clearly it is about making tires cheaper in China. Why else would you have something made there?

It seems to me that it would be a hard sell to a customer looking at an Airstream, that they need to immediately buy new tires. That's how it comes from the factory, why would a dealer eat the cost of the GYM's they're taking off?
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Old 03-06-2013, 04:14 PM   #29
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It's also not fair to assume that because something is made in China that it's crap.

If the US company that orders the manufacturing says "make it as cheap as possible" it's going to be crap. China also makes some of the most sophisticated and excellent products in the world. There are bicycle factories in china that make Wal-Mart bikes and High-end $10,000 frames in the same production floor. It all depends on the tolerances specified by the (usually USA) company.

It's like saying "Americans are all fat". Gross over-generalization.

-Kevin
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Old 03-06-2013, 04:27 PM   #30
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..........It's like saying "Americans are all fat". Gross over-generalization.

-Kevin
I cant speak for all Americans but I am betting fat on this vacation!
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Old 03-06-2013, 04:39 PM   #31
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OK, so now China is unfairly accused of make cheap stuff. This thread has jumped the shark. The last time I was in Mexico I was walking past a street vendor and he says to me "this is good stuff, made in Mexico, not China!" I had to laugh and tell him that was a great line. He agreed.

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Old 03-06-2013, 04:45 PM   #32
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Put me in the "Marathons are BS Camp" as well. I had 3 blow outs in 1,000 miles on 2 year old dated Marathons. There's a big difference in ST tires on a 16' Bambi and the same 15" ST tire on a 2 axle 30' Classic especially with a slide out. I also have a 16' utility trailer with 2 axles and have no problem using Marathons on that trailer. What made me do a "double-take" was that both my 30' Classic and my 16' utility trailer had THE EXACT SAME TIRES and that's when I decided to make the switch to 16" Michelin LTX-MS-2's and have never looked back. I run the same tire only 18" on my F-250 and you almost can't wear them out. I run my truck over many miles 4 wheel drive on pipeline right of ways and then 70-75 mph on the highway (not towing my AS). I am not a fan of anything French, but I bow to the Michelin tire company.

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Old 03-06-2013, 05:46 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by outofcontrol View Post
There's also a good article on why you should use ST tires on a trailer:
Tire Tech Information - Trailer Tires vs. Passenger Vehicle Tires
It's not exactly about ST vs. LT, but good information.

-Kevin
Well from this link.
Quote:
Also consider that Special Trailer (ST), as well as Light Truck (LT) tires are fully rated for trailer applications. This means ST- and LT-sized tires can carry the full weight rating branded on the sidewalls when used on a trailer.
Doesn't sound like an argument against LT tires on a trailer to me.
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Old 03-07-2013, 01:02 AM   #34
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Internet tire reviews and anecdotal accounts on this and several other RV Web sites are what I used to make my tire/wheel size buying decision. The accuracy of this "data" is known to be biased, and in some cases, probably inaccurate. However, that's all that is available.

My own personal experience with tires on my 19-foot Bambi are:

Two of the three original Goodyear Marathons that came on my Airstream failed (#3 was the spare). Tire pressure = 65 psi. One blew out and caused several hundred dollars of damage to the wheel well; the other had tread separation and was about to come apart. All three ST tires were made in China -- GYM = 67% failure rate.

These two GYMs were replace with two Maxxis, load range E tires; and a year or so later, the tread on one of them started to separate. Tire pressure = 80 psi. These two ST tires were made in China -- Maxxis = 50% failure rate.

I switched to 16-inch wheels and Michelin XPS Ribs about 2.5 years and 15,000 miles ago. These load range E, LT tires have steel sidewall and steel radial plies, and they were made in Germany. To date, these have had absolutely no problems; and all I have done is adjust the tire pressure seasonally, due to wide ambient temperature differences. Tire pressure = 80 psi. -- XPS Ribs = 0% failure rate (to date).

Before I switched to XPS Ribs, my buying decisions were based on anecdotal Internet reviews. After three ST tire failures, and no problems with LT tires, my future buying decisions will be based on personal experience.

I respect the opinions of those who continue buying Goodyear Marathons and/or wish to play the devil's advocate. That's your decision; and I wish you luck. However, with XPS Ribs, I no longer worry about catastrophic tire failures, damaged wheel wells (or worse), and being stranded for hours, hundreds of miles from a town large enough to have a tow truck and tire store.

My tire worries are now limited to running over nails and such, the same as with my tow vehicle.
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Old 03-07-2013, 07:52 AM   #35
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I have been crossing the scales with my new TV with every change I have made to the vehicle that added weight. It has been interesting to see how a known component's weight gets distributed between front and rear axles. I have one more relatively heavy component and two more supplemental filter systems to add the to the truck. I am projecting that the truck alone will end up with with at least a 600 pound margin on the front axle rating and a 2,600 pound margin on the rear axle rating before the trailer is attached.

Crossing the scales with the trailer and Hensley hitch with "stuff" on board and no water in the tanks and then with full potable water and 5 gallons of slosh water in each of the gray and black water tanks, the rear axle load appears to be at least 1,500 pounds below maximum rating and the front axle lost 100 pounds of weight to 4,720 pounds. Seem to still have steering capability. The very conservative factory GVW is 1,910 pounds lower than the total of the axle ratings.

The Michelin truck LT265/70R17E tires have a maximum pressure rating of 80 psi but are currently carrying the factory suggested 60 psi on the front and 50 psi on the rear based upon the current axle loading.

The two 3,600 pound rated trailer axles per the scales at this moment are supporting 5,900 pounds. The four 15" Michelins [LTX (P) 235/75R15 XL] are rated 2,183 pounds each per the sidewall and per 49 CFR 571.110 must be derated to a 1,985 pound load. The four derated tires can support 7,940 pounds or 8,732 pounds per the sidewall. Even when the total trailer weight is maxed out, the truck carries close to 1,200 of the 7,300 pound GVW trailer rating. Thus the 15" tires have over a 25% safety margin even at the derated capacity.

For my 25FB Airstream, I do not seed the need for the 16" Michelin tire.
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Old 03-09-2013, 11:57 AM   #36
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switz, have you isolated the weights, tire-by-tire? That's the acid test. Don't forget being parked with guests aboard.

As to size, LT is hard to find in a 15" any more. Thus the change to 16".

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Old 03-09-2013, 01:03 PM   #37
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smart guy!

Quote:
Originally Posted by outofcontrol View Post
This Goodyear Marathon ST (GYM) tire thing is an amazing study in modern sociology and also skewed statistics.

Do all Airstreams come with GYM ST tires?

You have to step back and think about how these forums work. I've seen it dozens of times on all sorts of forums. If 100% of all airstreams come with GYM tires a certain percent are going to fail. Let's imagine for a moment that number is the same for all tire manufacturers. But our sample here is probably 99% on GYM tires.

So, if you have a blowout, you're going to say something about it here. And if you never have a blowout, you're probably never going to visit the "tires" section.

I'm pretty sure if Airstreams all came with Maxxis M8008 ST tires, you'd hear the same "horror" stories over and over. Because most people don't say anything about them if they just sit on the trailer and go roundy round.

I'm also willing to guess that those who switch to a 16" LT tire have had a blowout. And they are naturally better equipped now on how to maintain and prevent a blowout. Sun, loading, storage, tow speeds, etc. So because of that experience, they naturally will have a lower future blowout rate than the inexperienced.

I just have a little skepticism with people claiming that a certain tire, that Airstream continues to put on our trailers, is a ticking time bomb.

If you enter "goodyear marathon blowout" in the search function here, guess what? you're going to find a whole list of horror stories about blowouts with GYM tires.

The OP is asking for "Informed Decision" and I read that as a request for "empirical data". Unfortunately, you're going to have to go outside an AS forum to find a good sampling of all tires compared. Not just all Airstreams with original equipment GYM tires.

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Old 03-09-2013, 05:28 PM   #38
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My GYM horror story. Came new on my 2010 28ft Flying Cloud. Towed 41k miles on every kind of road imaginable including a zillion dirt miles in Canada and blistering interstates in the southwest starting in Oct 2009. Never had a problem or even a flat, checked air pressure each towing day, usually added air when at high altitude on cold mornings. Replaced them with 16 inch Dunlop RVXT load range E May 2012. Have 21k miles on the Dunlops with no issues. GYM worked well for me, I just wanted better looking wheels and a higher tire load factor of safety cause that's the way I am....if a little is good, more is better, and too much is just right. No GYM gripes here.
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Old 03-25-2013, 08:07 PM   #39
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Les,
Apparently, Goodyear began having problems with the Marathon when production first switched to China sometime 5 or 6 years ago. My understanding is that they then switched back to US production of the tire for a period of time while they investigated the cause of the failing tires coming from China. Once the problem was identified and corrected tire production was returned to China again. Bruce
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Old 03-26-2013, 01:15 AM   #40
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There is no single excuse for all the negativity about the Special Trailer tires (ST) and their failure reports.

There are two ST manufacturers that are prolific providers of Original Equipment tires (OE) for the RV trailer community. Carlisle and Goodyear. Both have numerous failure reports in almost all ST tire sizes.

It has been my observation that most first time RV trailer owners do not know the difference between ST tires and their passenger or truck tires. The safe operating envelope for the ST tire differs significantly from those of the P & LT designs.

The ST tire is designed to age-out in three to five years. Carlisle once said that they degrade as much as 3% per year. The bias tires have been advertised to serve no longer than 5000 - 12000 miles and the radial may last as long as 20000 miles. All ST tires are speed restricted to 65 MPH. Carlisle once had 60 MPH in their warranty but has changed it to 65 MPH with their newest design. St tires are designed to be aired to the maximum allowed on their sidewall. Manipulation of tire pressures with the ST design is just like asking for the dreaded tread separation.

The ST tire sidewall stiffness is somewhere in between that of the P and LT tire’s and is designed to be lower in the profile to help prevent sway. The shallow tread area is designed to dissipate heat build-up in the carcass.

When the ST tire is maintained correctly and operated within its design parameters it will be successful during its designed lifespan.

There have been zero recalls for ST tires.
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