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Old 03-20-2015, 09:57 AM   #29
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I must be an exception to the rule. I've been running the same GYM that came with my 2003 19' ccd. They have held air better than my tow tires, needing a top off in spring and fall. Driving trips from chicago to Badlands, Smokey Mts, boundary Waters, Upper Penninsula, and many others.

So 12 years isn't bad. I am planning new tires in the coming weeks and torn between GYM, Gladiator, and Tow Max. For now I'm leaning toward a D load, though have not ruled out E. We travel light.

The reports about GY are scarey
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Old 03-20-2015, 10:47 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Coloradobus View Post
Carlisle is owned by Goodyear.
I don't think they own them but based on manufacturing codes on the tires, some of the Carlisle tires have been produced in Goodyear plants.

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Old 03-20-2015, 10:59 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazylev View Post
I must be an exception to the rule. I've been running the same GYM that came with my 2003 19' ccd. They have held air better than my tow tires, needing a top off in spring and fall. Driving trips from chicago to Badlands, Smokey Mts, boundary Waters, Upper Penninsula, and many others.

So 12 years isn't bad. I am planning new tires in the coming weeks and torn between GYM, Gladiator, and Tow Max. For now I'm leaning toward a D load, though have not ruled out E. We travel light.

The reports about GY are scarey
You are an exception if your tires are 12 years old of any brand. Although your gross weight with load is about 4500 lbs. Aren't you a single axle or are you a tandem? If you are a tandem, ST tires are not a bad choice in your weight class.

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Old 03-20-2015, 11:36 AM   #32
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My '00 Bambi came with Marathons that were original and 8 years old when I bought the trailer. The PO had had no issues with tires at all. I replace them with new Marathons, stepping up to a D load rating. Like Lev, I've pulled them out west and back, and all over the midwest, run them at 65 lb cold and have not had any problems. They can sit all winter and don't lose any air. Maybe they are well suited for a 19' for some reason. I've been thinking of replacing them, as they are now 6 years old, but will probably stick with the Marathons unless Michelin produces an ST tire.
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Old 03-20-2015, 11:42 AM   #33
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Jack,

Yes, we have the single axle. And thanks Robert.
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Old 03-20-2015, 12:52 PM   #34
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Question Causation or Correlation

The fundamental problem with the idea that just because the plant that built the tires is painted green or has two floors rather than one or has a Zip code beginning with 9 rather than 4 or is built by people that speak Spanish rather than German etc that we should expect the tires made there to fail at a high frequency, is not based on sound problem analysis.
I could just as easily claim that RV workers that live in Ohio are bad because every RV problem reported here was built by workers living in Zip code starting with 45.

Lets break this down:
It is a fact that of the 30,000 or so RVs that have been weighed with individual tire position scales over half have one or more tires in an overload condition. In any population of products if over half are being used beyond their design intent (max load based on measured inflation) why would we be surprised if there is a relatively high failure rate?

Well what if I said that 90% of the tires that are put on RV trailers are built in tire plants painted Green? Does it seem logical that the color of the paint used on the building would result in a tire being weaker or to age faster ? If that were true maybe the color we paint the RV might have an effect on the life of your tires.
If you haven't studied Statistics you might invest 18 minutes and watch this video "Correlation does not mean Causation"
You might see how improper analysis is many times used in advertising, on TV and even in Political sound bites.

But back to tires.

Another fact is that other than with a complete loss of air, tires almost never fail as soon as they are overloaded or under-inflated or run faster than their designed speed. The reality is IMO that a problem with tires is that they are perhaps too good. Since they don't fail as soon as they are abused, the owner isn't immediately punished (by having an immediate tire failure) so the owner incorrectly assumes his actions are OK.

There have been documented cases of tires failing days and weeks after being damaged from significant overload. A few cases have been well investigated as both personal injury and even deaths were involved.

This is both good and bad news.
It's good news is tire failure happens infrequently. The bad news is that owners receive negative reinforcement that bad actions (over-load, low inflation and high speed) do not result in a failure, so the owner does not associate the failure with the incorrect behavior. Any parent knows that when a child does something wrong it does no good to chastise them days later.

Now I am not calling everyone that has had a tire failure a "bad" person or insinuating they are behiving like children. I am using this example as this is rather basic psychology.

I have documented some tire failures that occurred and were not properly associated with the previous damage in a few posts on my blog.

It is important to remember that if you do not properly identify the real reason for a product failure simply changing the brand or painting your RV a different color will probably not prevent a recurrence of a future failure.
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Old 03-20-2015, 12:56 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcanavera View Post
You are an exception if your tires are 12 years old of any brand. Although your gross weight with load is about 4500 lbs. Aren't you a single axle or are you a tandem? If you are a tandem, ST tires are not a bad choice in your weight class.

Jack
Very important point. Multi-Axle trailers impose significantly greater Inter-Ply strain than single axle trailers because the tires are fighting each other as they cannot all rotate around a centerline pointing to the center of the radius of the turn.

You can Google RV tire Interply shear if you want the technical info.
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Old 03-20-2015, 02:07 PM   #36
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Quote: "It is a fact that of the 30,000 or so RVs that have been weighed with individual tire position scales over half have one or more tires in an overload condition. In any population of products if over half are being used beyond their design intent (max load based on measured inflation) why would we be surprised if there is a relatively high failure rate?"

----------

248 AirForums members completed the Tire Failure Poll. 118 Airstreams had 173 tires that failed. Most of these were OEM GYMs or ST tires in a size and inflation pressure specified by the Airstream factory.

While similar data for 16" wheels and LT tires are not available, it looks like only five LT tire failures have been reported by AirForums members who switched.

In my opinion, unless those 30,000 RVs are Airstreams and the tire models, sizes and inflation pressures are available, I don't see how this data is pertinent. Could you please cite your source and provide a data extract of only Airstreams with OEM-spec tires and inflation pressures? Without comparable data, this comparison is of apples and oranges.

If this information is unavailable, I don't know why AirForums members should accept the blame for tire failures, when the personal experiences of many indicate that ST tires have not been well-suited for use on their Airstreams.


==========


Quote: "It is important to remember that if you do not properly identify the real reason for a product failure simply changing the brand or painting your RV a different color will probably not prevent a recurrence of a future failure."

----------

In my opinion, this statement is untrue.

As non-tire-engineers, we do NOT need to know the exact cause of tire failures. By trial and error, many of us have determined for ourselves that (at least on our own Airstreams) LT tires are more reliable than ST tires; and switching to 16" wheels and LT tires WILL greatly reduce the chances of future failures.
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Old 03-20-2015, 02:18 PM   #37
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"As non-tire-engineers, we do NOT need to know the exact cause of tire failures. By trial and error, many of us have determined for ourselves that (at least on our own Airstreams) LT tires are more reliable than ST tires; and switching to 16" wheels and LT tires WILL greatly reduce the chances of future failures."

Many but not all.

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Old 03-20-2015, 02:39 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post
Quote: "It is a fact that of the 30,000 or so RVs that have been weighed with individual tire position scales over half have one or more tires in an overload condition. In any population of products if over half are being used beyond their design intent (max load based on measured inflation) why would we be surprised if there is a relatively high failure rate?"

----------

248 AirForums members completed the Tire Failure Poll. 118 Airstreams had 173 tires that failed. Most of these were OEM GYMs or ST tires in a size and inflation pressure specified by the Airstream factory.

While similar data for 16" wheels and LT tires are not available, it looks like only five LT tire failures have been reported by AirForums members who switched.

In my opinion, unless those 30,000 RVs are Airstreams and the tire models, sizes and inflation pressures are available, I don't see how this data is pertinent. Could you please cite your source and provide a data extract of only Airstreams with OEM-spec tires and inflation pressures? Without comparable data, this comparison is of apples and oranges.

If this information is unavailable, I don't know why AirForums members should accept the blame for tire failures, when the personal experiences of many indicate that ST tires have not been well-suited for use on their Airstreams.


==========


Quote: "It is important to remember that if you do not properly identify the real reason for a product failure simply changing the brand or painting your RV a different color will probably not prevent a recurrence of a future failure."

----------

In my opinion, this statement is untrue.

As non-tire-engineers, we do NOT need to know the exact cause of tire failures. By trial and error, many of us have determined for ourselves that (at least on our own Airstreams) LT tires are more reliable than ST tires; and switching to 16" wheels and LT tires WILL greatly reduce the chances of future failures.
So you are saying the ST tires fail, because they are on airstreams? That other trailers do fine on them, just not Airstreams. I still think the reason they fail is
1 old tires
2 unseen damage
3 speed
4 overloaded
5 improper inflation
If you were to replace tires every three years, I think we would see a drastic decrease in failures IMHO

Cost in 15 years
$460x5=$2300 for ST

$1000x3=$3000 for LT + initial cost of new wheels - selling your old wheels

You could almost replace ST's every two years. I actually think it's whatever makes you compfortable driving down the road. Talking money, it's a wash, but the fact that it's an Airstream has nothing to do with failure. If it does, Airstream, has a design flaw. IMHO
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Old 03-20-2015, 05:14 PM   #39
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My comments appear below in BLUE TEXT:
  • So you are saying the ST tires fail, because they are on airstreams? That other trailers do fine on them, just not Airstreams. -- No; ST tires also fail on fifth wheels, and on travel, boat, horse, utility and other types of trailers. Other usergroups just don't collect failure data, and the few details available are anecdotal. While interesting to note, it doesn't seem useful to discuss other trailers' tire failures on this forum. However, if interested, one's curiosity can be satisfied by Google-ing "Goodyear Marathon tire failures".

  • I still think the reason they fail is:

    1. old tires -- The Tire Failure Poll indicates that ST tires begin failing when brand new. Then, the failure rate steadily increases and peaks in year three when the rate drops off, probably due to most bad tires having already been replaced. Costco, Discount Tire and Michelin all recommend regular inspection of tires for age-related problems beginning in the sixth year; so replacing tires at three years of age seems premature, assuming they are OK.

    2. unseen damage -- If "unseen damage" includes failure of internal tire components, then this would be difficult to prove, either in support of or against this statement. However, if "unseen damage" is the cause of ST tires failures, why doesn't this also cause LT tires to fail on the same Airstream, driven in a similar manner, on similar roads, with the same tire pressure?

    3. speed -- Same reasoning as #2, above.

    4. overloaded -- Same reasoning as #2, above.

    5. improper inflation -- Same reasoning as #2, above.

  • If you were to replace tires every three years, I think we would see a drastic decrease in failures IMHO -- I can speak only from personal experience: On our single-axle Airstream, two OEM GYMs failed at three years of age. Then, I installed two Maxxis ST tires (which some believe to be better than most other ST tires); and two years later, one of those failed. So, if one follows this guideline for using ST tires, the time for replacement should probably be modified to "annually".

    Note: Our Michelin XPS Rib LT tires are four years old, and we have had absolutely no problems with them.
Regarding the cost comparison, only time will tell whether switching to 16" wheels and LT tires is cheaper than continuing to use ST tires. However, this calculation should also include the cost of any Airstream repairs; as the cumulative chances of wheel well and body damage may increase with the total number of blowout/tread separations.

For us, increased tire reliability and reduction in downtime on the side of the road are worth any additional expense.
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Old 03-20-2015, 06:24 PM   #40
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I'm not saying LT is the wrong way to go. I'm saying for every trailer that blows a ST there is another guy running without problem. People who have had a problem tend to tell about it a bit more than those who dont. I personaly havent, and I have four trailers with 15" ST ( 16 tires) one with 16"ST (four tires). I have run TT's since '99 without issue, boats since '94, work trailers for 10 years. That doesnt make me right, or you wrong. Just another point of vew. Thats why I said, cost is even,it comes down to what your compfortable with, so we can drive happy. I may have any one of those tires fail tomorrow, just has'nt happen in the past.
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Old 03-20-2015, 06:33 PM   #41
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My experience:

6 gymt on a 2005 boat trailer, combined weight of trailer and boat around 12,500lbs. I never had a problem and replaced them in 2014 with carlisles, why? Less than $600 out the door done locally and upgraded from D to E rating. I have trailered from chicago to miami to ozarks and everywhere in between.

4 gymt on a 2002 wells cargo 7,000lb tool trailer, in poor shape but they are still on there and will be replace with what I find reasonably priced as this trailer stays within 50 miles of home.

4 gymt on the airstream purchased in 2010. Look like brand new and feel no need to replace them at this time.

I think a lot of people like to have their opinions heard...but that's what a forum is about, people talking to talk LOL
cale
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Old 03-20-2015, 08:40 PM   #42
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I Took The Plunge

Just wanted to say a huge "Thank you" to Jack. I sent him a PM and he called me to discuss this topic over the horn. Jack's an awfully nice guy, and willing to lend an ear or hand at a moments notice. He's a first class WBCCI member.

After hearing Jack's response to my queries, it was very obvious he had this subject well covered. After our discussion, I pulled out the shinies I had saved, and ordered the Michelin 16" tires & rims today. I just can't deal with having to keep looking in the mirror HOPING we won't lose a tire. Piece of mind to me is priceless.

So I guess I can't get in on Phoenix's survey, but if he adds a section that shows
"Influenced by fellow AS friends to ditch the POS GYM" I'll be the first to respond.

Thanks again Jack! You my friend, are an awesome fellow.
Pics of my upgrade just as soon as they get here. With a 70k mile warranty on the tires, I too will be looking from afar from this thread. Wooohooo!!
Sea ya down the road,
Gavin
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