Goodyear Marathon Failures

[Minnie's Mate]

Safari 28, view this video and decide for yourself:
http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=4826897

It seems to me that the general consensus on this forum at one time was replace tires when they get to be 5-6 years old. What you decide to buy when the time comes is up to you based on what you read here and other sources. There are several other threads on which tire brands and durability are discussed. It sounds like your Marathons have proven themselves.

[Gene]

Originally Posted by RossFam05BH

Hey SRW,

Dream on - the big wheels on this forum will take a bead on your post, hit below the belts, and lug this thread back onto the Portal quicker than a Marathon can spring a leak!

Originally Posted by SRW

Maybe my over inflated ego needs changing, and I can't take the pressure, but its all getting just a bit tiresome, so tread on me no more.

SRW

I hope you guys haven't rubbered anyone the wrong way. We'll have to gauge that later. When the tire questions are all aired out, we can have a big blow out.

Gene

[Whizzo]

This thread certainly gives a new A/S-er some reason for healthy caution. I was pretty cautious in watching and inspecting every stop during the first 1800 mile round trip, @ 60 mph and 65 psi. The SOB was a double axle with the same Marathons, though C range. With but one axle, my watchfulness went up a bit.

I'm curious if the ST-type tires have a different construction than radials, that you can feel by touch. The sidewalls on mine are not uniformly smooth, but seem to have distinct segments underneath the rubber. Might I be detecting an internal construction difference, or something else?

[bhayden]

The ST tires can be either bias ply or radial construction. The Marathons are radials. Most if not all the ST tires use larger diameter cords in their construction that allow the higher pressure rating required for the increased load capacity. It's easier/cheaper to increase the size of the cord than increase the number of layers/plys in the construction.

[ROBERTSUNRUS]

Originally Posted by Whizzo

I'm curious if the ST-type tires have a different construction than radials, that you can feel by touch. The sidewalls on mine are not uniformly smooth, but seem to have distinct segments underneath the rubber. Might I be detecting an internal construction difference, or something else?

Hi, I wondering the same thing; I noticed several side wall joints on my Marathons and thought that this was unusual. I expect to see one or two, but my Mararthons had several. I talked to three Goodyear dealers and was told by two of them that if they have more than three segments on the sidewall that they were defective. Manager said "bring them in and I'll take care of them for you." I took two wheels off and brought them to Goodyear and at that time the manager was side stepping and told me his superviser [over the phone] said ST tires have more segments and that was normal. They also said that, what looks like the start of a bubble on the side wall was caused by me running over something. In other words "I lied, to get you down here so I could make a sale out of denying a warranty claim." Here are two pictures of my tires with arrows marking the sidewall segments and a circle marking what looks like a bubble starting. Click on picture to enlarge.

[Gene]

The sidewalls on mine are wavy in places. That may be the segmentation Bob describes. I asked about it on the walk through last year and everyone at the dealership told me no one had ever asked that before. I think I had been reading about Marathons earlier in the history of this thread. At that time, there were posts about a possible "secret recall" of Marathons, though that conjecture has since disappeared.

We walked around the lot and were looking at tires on motorhomes—some of them had Michelins on them and those tires had the same wavy spots. I asked them to check with Airstream about my tires and they later told me they called Airstream and were told the tires were normal.

Normal? Maybe it's my ignorance, but I don't understand how something that's supposed to be even all the way around appears to be thinner in some parts. I've never seen that in a car or truck tire. A bubble is the opposite. I haven't seen a bubble in many years and I think I only saw them in defective bias ply truck tires. I don't recall a depression in the sidewall before the bubble appeared. What I see in the Marathons is not a bubble, but a depression several inches wide (maybe 3") and running from the wheel towards but not quite reaching the tread. I've tried to ignore it.

I don't recall how many each tire has and it's early and I'm hungry and it rained last night (yes, it rained in the high desert! Hooray!), so I'm not going to go count them, or look on the inside while being attacked by scores of grasshoppers. That's the funny thing about the high desert—hardly any rain for most of June and July, then the monsoon in August. No sand here. The ground is hard as a rock or the worst clay mud and grasshoppers too. And the Dish network guy never showed up yesterday. But I digress…

So, Bob, am I describing what you call "side wall joints" or segments? Do others have the same thing?

Gene

[Whizzo]

Originally Posted by CrawfordGene

... am I describing what you call "side wall joints" or segments? Do others have the same thing?

Gene - what you are describing is exactly what I noted, and Bob described in greater detail. Based on bhayden's reply, maybe this is just the extra material making itself known within the sidewall.

Still, it is unlike any passenger type radial I've seen before. But I don't go around inspecting sidewalls much!

John W

[richinny]

about 6 years ago, i had cooper P series tires on my pickup. i noticed the sidewall "seams" when i was switching over to snow tires to plow. the shop called the dealer and the gave me a pro-rated credit on what was left on the tires. where this falls into our concerns, i have no idea.

[2airishuman]

Originally Posted by ROBERTSUNRUS

Here are two pictures of my tires with arrows marking the sidewall segments and a circle marking what looks like a bubble starting...

hi bob, good pix!

the depressions are said to be belt overlaps.

not seen when deflated, they become obvious as the tire is inflated.

the overlapped areas don't distend uniformly with the rest of the side wall...

often, not always there are matching depressions on the inner/outer side walls.

no one with rubber knowledge has suggested 2 me that the overlapped depressions are a weak spot or a cause for concern.

i've found these depressions occasionally on LT tires inflated to 70+ psi....

since passenger car tires seldom see more than 40 psi the sidewalls don't get stressed by air to the same degree.

the RAISED area is a different issue and is reason enough for a replacement tire.

it isn't a classic 'bubble' but is considered a weak spot/potential area for failure and bubbles do form in these areas occasionally.

this is explained at the tirerack site and in other threads here.

your photos are very similar to the one i posted for the tires gy replaced under warranty.

the shop wanted to argue that i'd hit something and damaged the tires, but they were totally unused having been spares only.

cheers
2air'

[Gene]

Somehow 2air's post caused me to figure out (and I may be the last person to do so) that the depressions should be stronger than the rest of the tire. One way to look at it would be the weak spots are the rest of the tire and the strong spots are the depressions—they don't expand as much under pressure.

Next question: does the fact the tire sidewalls have different widths cause tread to separate? Is there more strain on certain parts of the tread because of that? I wonder where separation starts and if there's a pattern there?

Gene

[2airishuman]

gene...

from one untrained tire user to another...

while the overlaps don't distend to the same degree that doesn't equal more strength...

the overlaps are often at the ENDs and might be weaker areas without overlap.

one way to hide them would be to increase the surface rubber thickness, BUT this would cause the tire to run hotter.

the goals of the carcass is to remain intact under load and stress and heat AND offer good ride quality...

to serve as a foundation for, and to remain properly attached to the tread block.

so for example IF the belts (which have larger diameter cords) were FULLY doubled again...

the tire might be way to STIFF...

overlapped areas or FULL caps also retain more HEAT, which may/maynot be a negative issue.

the goal of a cap or extra/thicker belt (as on the gyms) is to reduce belt squirm AND lifting under high speed centrifugal forces.

lastly TREAD loss/separation isn't the same as BELT separation.

CUTS cause many tread segment losses while belt separtaions are LARGELY do to...

UNDERinflation (for load or speed) and the resultant heat generated from the added flex and movement...

now awaiting the correction of these lies i offer...

cheers
2air'

[Gene]

Originally Posted by 2airishuman

gene...

now awaiting the correction of these lies i offer...

cheers
2air'

And I'm sure it will come, 2 air.

If I remember correctly, the idea of a radial is the flexible sidewall allows better traction on curves because the sidewall doesn't pull at the tread and make it slide. The disadvantage is you don't skid gradually, but all at once. If I have translated what you have written into my version of English, there are extra belts in the sidewall in an ST tire which would reduce I would think the traction??? Are the people in this thread reporting tread or sidewall separation? I never thought about that before. And why wouldn't an overlap, if properly bonded, be the strongest part? Is that where belts separate, or do they separate from the next belt?

I never thought buying an Airstream would be require being a tire mavin, a status of expertise I think I will never attain.

Gene

[ROBERTSUNRUS]

Hi, I just sent all my information and story to Goodyear through their "Contact us" on their site. I also noticed that the warranty on Marathons are six years from date of manufacture or from date of proof of purchase. I was told by the dealers that the Marathon warranty was four years. Not that I really expect them to honor their warranty. I was planning to replace them at the six year mark anyway. Waiting patiently for their responce ........ .......Bob

[wingfoot321]

CrawfordGene,

You are on the money. The indentations you see are actually the area in the ply material where the splice is made of the beginning and trailing end of each ply. This area is an overlap of approx 1/4 inch and is therefore stronger and resists extension under pressure. There are two plies so there will normally be two splices and they should be staggered somewhat apart. However, if the ply stock being wrapped around the tire happens to have a short piece of material spliced in before it gets to the tire, then you can end up with a "preparation splice" that makes an additional splice. This additional splice shouldn't happen very often but, it is normal.

[wingfoot321]

CrawfordGene,

Missed the second part of your post.

To the best of my knowledge, all manufacturers use two plies of fabric in trailer tires of equal width but, probably offset approx 1/2 inch so there is not a big stepoff at the ply ending. This should have nothing to do with the belt package.

The belt package is generally two belts with one wider than the other by a small amount on each side so you don't get a big stepoff at the belt ending. They are at opposite angles such as 25degrees right angle and 25 degrees left angle.

The failure modes can be many; tread separation at the splice or a loss of adhesion to the top belt anywhere around the tire, belt edge separation, or belt separation anywhere between the two belts or the bottom belt to the ply. I have never seen a cut maxxis tire but, understand that it is suppose to have a full width fabric belt over the wire belts to increase the strength and overall adhesion & tightness of the tire. I know that Goodyear a few years back added what are called belt edge reinforcements to their design. These strips are about 1 inch wide and are nylon and run circumferentially around the tire and cover the endings of
the belts. I think these strips were an attempt to reduce separations at the point where the horizontal plane of the belts becomes the vertical plane of the sidewall.
I understand this is a const technique used on high performance tires.

Just my $.02 from a user. I was not a tire engineer.

[2airishuman]

Originally Posted by wingfoot321

...Just my $.02 from a user. I was not a tire engineer.

good answer wingfoot! tire engineer or not...

hey gene, that's exactly how i would have answered!

while the max have a full cap,

the current gyms have a reinforced edge on the nylon wraps intended for the same goal.

robertsunrus...

the replacement policy also is based on prorating for tread wear...

good luck and keep after'em.

cheers
2air'

[Gene]

Wingfoot, I think I understand part of what you say. I know explaining this without pictures, an actual tire taken apart, and charts, graphs and powerpoint, is difficult. Thanks for trying to explain this to all of us other non-tire engineers. I'm having a hard time visualizing this at this point. Duh. Next time I'm at a bookstore, I have to look for "Tire Engineering for Dummies".

Gene

[Whizzo]

Originally Posted by wingfoot321

You are on the money. The indentations you see are actually the area in the ply material where the splice is made of the beginning and trailing end of each ply.

Wingfoot - For not being a tire engineer, you sure can explain stuff for normal folks understanding. I feel quite a bit better, both for the widened knowledge of this whole thread, and the tire architecture primer that worked better than the standard diagram.

[Drabble]

Originally Posted by Condoluminum

There are a number of other threads you can search on using Goodyear or marathon or tire failure as search terms... This is not a new issue or subject...

Here is the deal...

1. ANY "ST" rated (Special Trailer") rated tire will max out at 65 mph and 100 degrees... That is all the tire companies feel they need to be designed for.
2. You can run anything you want on your trailer, from LT tires to 20" rims and little skinny donut tires. Your mileage may vary.. LT Tires are stiffer, and will cause a rough ride for trailer and contents, though many are designed for higher speeds and temps and load.
3. I know of few states that have speed limits of 70 or 75 mph for trucks and cars towing trailers.. Most speed limit signs have fine print at bottom limiting these two groups to 10 mph less than the autos... Many members (according to poll data) feel OK going faster, but the speed limits don't reflect that.
4. If blowouts and failures seem inevitable, I'm thinking a few less mph would make the inevitable event less exciting and easier to recover from..

Having experienced my first last month, my new learning is to carry a spare mounted, even if it has to go inside tow vehicle... Emergency Road Service can't help you on a Sunday eve when nearest tire stores are closed, and you might not enjoy spending the night where the tire failed, as they recommended that I should do...

John McG

John, In four years of full timing and, I'd guess at least 20k miles of towing a TT, I've needed (I mean REALLY needed!) a spare trailer tire three times. I would never suggest to anyone that it's OK to travel any significant distance with a trailer without a spare (or 2 or more!).

John Alldredge, life-long AS wannabe, now towing a Terry Dakota 722F with a Ford E250. My AS owning days are all ahead of me!

[ROBERTSUNRUS]

Hi, well as expected Goodyear took me all the way around on the scenic tour to wear me down and hit me with "The bubble on the side of your tire was caused by something you run over." Although they said the tires had to be removed from the rims so they could see the damage from the inside, but nothing showed. Goodyear still denyed warranty. I was given a discount on two new tires, but I really don't think I got a great deal. [maybe a bad deal?] So I now have two new Chinese Marathons on the left side and two, four year old, Canadian Marathons on the right side and one Canadian Marathon spare. [DOT 1904] So I told the tire store manager, "I don't really think Goodyear did anything for me, so I'm takeing the old tires home." They didn't need to return them to Goodyear because Goodyear was not going to warranty them. One of the tires can be used as a spare and the one with the bubble on the side, who knows, maybe Goodyear will have a recall on them and I will be made whole. [court talk] Or I could have this tire cut up and made into shoe souls? Why did I stay with Goodyears? Well no-one has proven to me any of the other Chinese made ST tires are any better than Marathons, Matching tires are much easier to find, and two tires were a lot cheaper than buying five of a different brand. I'm hopeing that this decission to bite the bullet and replace two tires rather than be hard headed by takeing a chance on these older tires explodeing and damaging my trailer was a wise decission.