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Old 04-06-2007, 03:47 PM   #29
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My Marathons are made in Canada.My Suburban was made in Mexico. Everything is globalizing, more or less.
My main speaker supplier Celestion of Great Britain, has moved production of some of their speakers to China. The quality became more consistent than the British made ones. But it bothered me that they were made in China, for image reasons.
So I switched to Eminence speaker - a US company in Kentucky. They're gearing up to move production to China....or so I heard.
Seen as a whole, it makes little difference to the family or business budget. I ( we) pay less for the products, but then we pay more for energy and steel. It's a wash, the only difference being that China's economy gets to grow in leaps and bounds, while ours goes in the toilet.
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Old 04-06-2007, 10:52 PM   #30
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Silvertwinkie- I would SERIOUSLY have to debate you on the U.S. manufactured auto scene..... I REALLY believe they are NOT up to snuff but do agree they have an image problem! I have friends and neighbors that have brand new AMERICAN made cars with serious issues.... I also rented a brand new minivan recently with 6,000 mile that had a complete transmission failure, needless to say that really turned me off to brand "X" from good ole "Henry" ! LOL. I have 2 Japanese cars, both built in Japan, 2001 Mitsubishi and 2002 Honda CRV....I think it is more than coincidence that NEITHER have ever been in a repair shop.... I rest my case.
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Old 04-07-2007, 01:10 AM   #31
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We as Americans can and should support our own country and its products .
But we also know that the japanese vehicals are very well made indeed .Its funny ,Toyota has plants going up in the mid west ,yet we here in the US
send our manafacturing over to india ,china and other countries .We can thank the government regulators for some of that ,but the global markets
are here ,Im wanting US made products too .I find many automotive parts
to be just crap ,as I am in the repair business for 30 years now ,and see
the quality is very poor indeed ,but we continue to demand the low prices
and Will buy the cheaper stuff no matter what it is .I don't have the answer
to it ,just the way it is .

Scott
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Old 04-07-2007, 07:14 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottanlily
We as Americans can and should support our own country and its products .
But we also know that the japanese vehicals are very well made indeed .Its funny ,Toyota has plants going up in the mid west ,yet we here in the US
send our manafacturing over to india ,china and other countries .We can thank the government regulators for some of that ,but the global markets
are here ,Im wanting US made products too .I find many automotive parts
to be just crap ,as I am in the repair business for 30 years now ,and see
the quality is very poor indeed ,but we continue to demand the low prices
and Will buy the cheaper stuff no matter what it is .I don't have the answer
to it ,just the way it is .

Scott
Hi Scott; Please allow me to add some serious facts and consequences. It is not China that is taking over our market, we are to blame. All that we are interested is the price, but we fail to remember that after short time the crap is unusable. What do we do then? We go out and buy another piece of junk to replace it. I have been in retail business for forty one years and I have seen it all. We are not educated in consumerism enough to even begin to understand where we stand on the world trade table. No one is buying us out, we are giving it all away and paying for it in addition to. We go to chain stores and buy clothing which seams are sewn with junk thread which broke every couple of inches and sewing was restarted leaving few inches, with end of broken thread still attached every couple of inches. I have stood and watched a lady in Boscov's pick and break off the hanging threads for about five minutes after which she headed for the sales desk. Do you really need a college education to recognize quality? Last two weeks I have been to many stores looking for a pair of work shoes. Guess what, all American brand name shoes are made in China. I refuse to buy them, so my wife tells me that I will have to go barefoot because they are all made in China. Until I find a pair without Chinese label, I guess you will find me in Dutch wooden shoes.

With us being so exposed to advertising, which accentuates only the price as the most important issue, we no longer see the trees for the Forrest. The drop in quality has has even spilled over onto our domestic products in order for them to compete with the world market. What do we do? We blame the manufacturers and not our selfs, the consumers. Next time you hungry, shut up and eat your Chinese made Hush Puppies. You are the one that puts our manufacturers either out of business or pushes their factories overseas to meet your demand for low price. And yes, your excuse that one person cannot make the difference is only that, because I can give you an example where one man changed the outcome of a battle. It is high time to realize that we the consumer can control it all.
And "Doorgunner" my hat off to you. Thanks "Boatdoc"
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Old 04-07-2007, 07:26 AM   #33
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A Difficult Subject

This has been an interesting thread regarding a difficult and often times emotional subject.

For years I've heard the cry of "American manufacturing jobs are moving overseas" as if it were the end of America. Unfortunately, those who scream the loudest are usually advocating some sort of government intervention that always involve tariffs and/or trade restrictions. These actions almost always negatively affect the consumer by restricting the selection of goods available in the market place as well as insulate the domestic producer from the competition which ultimately guarantees a better product to the consumer.

While I would be the first to admit that third world labor wages (China especially, given their human rights and religious persecution issues) seem unfair to domestic manufacturers, I don't know of a remedy that wouldn't ultimately lead to the loss of more jobs down the road.

Market corrections are painful, and the industry leaders who fall asleep at the wheel never pay as high of a price as those employed in the industry. (Most corporate CEOs are grossly overpaid, but that is between the board of directors and stockholders, not the government.)

The emergence of Japananese auto manufacturing in the 70s and 80s was a huge wake up call to an American industry that was producing junk. While their quality has improved greatly (both real and perceived), I still believe that they are hampered by UAW agreements (wage, heath benefits, retirements) that will ultimately be their undoing. (And I own two Fords, F-150 and E-350). Japanese manufacturers don't have these obligations to live up to.

A long waste of words to say:

The free market economy is not perfect but it is better than any other in making the best products available at the best prices.

China products will get better and eventually cost more as the standard of living over there increases. Domestic producers will survive through innovation and adaptation. (Some industries will probably never return.)

The wise consumer recognizes that value is a function of price and quality and will spend his hard earned funds accordingly.

Product loyalty is developed by producing a high quality product at a fair and reasonable price. Admittedly, too many Americans are price-driven and quality-conscious rather than quality-driven and price-conscious. It falls to the producer to educate the consumer regarding the value of their product. (And this is admittedly, not that easy most of the time.)
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Old 04-07-2007, 07:34 AM   #34
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Doorgunner,

I'm with ya' all the way, but the current state of the market prevents us from actually getting the quality of products that we want. I say 'we' but actually, most consumers are hardwired these days to buy on 3 requirements: price, price and price!!!

I don't shop at Walmart for a variety of reasons, the main one being that I really don't want to support the Chinese economy and US corporate greed. I always look for US made products, but it is getting harder to find them every day!

I refuse to buy 'disposeable' tools from places like Harbor Freight, Northern Tool and some now even from Sears-Craftsman. Yes, the prices are great and you can probably buy 3-4 pieces of the same tool when you break it for what one quality US-made tool costs, but my living depends on these and I'll pay the extra costs gladly!

Given the state of corporate America today, I doubt that any resurgence in the US manufacturing sector will happen any time soon. Look at the outrageous salaries and benefits that top execs are getting, EVEN WHEN THE COMPANIES ARE BLEEDING MONEY, FACTORIES ARE CLOSING AND WORKERS ARE BEING FURLOUGHED!!!!!

The bottom line and the performance of the companies stock is driving these companies, not who or where their products are made. The US consumer created this mess by supporting the retailers who sell this junk while driving the quality shops out of business.

I'm afraid that we are stuck in this mess for quite some time. You can usually find the quality you seek from other sources like Germany and other EU countries and the global marketplace has helped. I sure wish that 'Made in the US' was easier to find.
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Old 04-07-2007, 08:29 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johndigbydog
Silvertwinkie- I would SERIOUSLY have to debate you on the U.S. manufactured auto scene..... I REALLY believe they are NOT up to snuff but do agree they have an image problem! I have friends and neighbors that have brand new AMERICAN made cars with serious issues.... I also rented a brand new minivan recently with 6,000 mile that had a complete transmission failure, needless to say that really turned me off to brand "X" from good ole "Henry" ! LOL. I have 2 Japanese cars, both built in Japan, 2001 Mitsubishi and 2002 Honda CRV....I think it is more than coincidence that NEITHER have ever been in a repair shop.... I rest my case.
So sad to here that your not happy with our American made products, but the next time that your in the market for a new truck, please take a hard look at our new "Motor Trend" award, Chevy Silverado Truck, with a 5 year powertain warranty, "Motor Trend" rates the Chevy Silverado Truck as the better buy over the toyota tundra............
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Old 04-07-2007, 08:50 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lewster
I refuse to buy 'disposeable' tools from places like Harbor Freight, Northern Tool and some now even from Sears-Craftsman. Yes, the prices are great and you can probably buy 3-4 pieces of the same tool when you break it for what one quality US-made tool costs, but my living depends on these and I'll pay the extra costs gladly!
Lew, I agree about the disposable tool problem. However, last summer I bought a nearly $500 torque wrench from Snap-On Tools (you know, US company, made in the USA, etc). When I opened the blow-molded case, a small piece of paper drifted out. When I picked it up, the paper read "manufactured in China". Sigh. I only hope it was the blow molded case, not the wrench, that came from China.
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Old 04-07-2007, 08:51 AM   #37
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Paper

Hopefully the little piece of Paper was made in China.
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Old 04-07-2007, 08:52 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by toastie
"Motor Trend" rates the Chevy Silverado Truck as the better buy over the toyota tundra............
I haven't read the article, so I don't have the facts, but was it a better buy because it was better quality, or because it was cheaper? Obviously, it would make a difference in our discussion here.
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Old 04-07-2007, 09:11 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by overlander63
I haven't read the article, so I don't have the facts, but was it a better buy because it was better quality, or because it was cheaper? Obviously, it would make a difference in our discussion here.
Being connected to the auto industry here in Detroit, look for Toyota to start with cutting wages and benefits here in the U.S.

2007 Chevrolet Silverado vs 2007 Toyota Tundra - Head to Head Road Test & Review - Motor Trend
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Old 04-07-2007, 09:17 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johndigbydog
I think it is more than coincidence that NEITHER have ever been in a repair shop.... I rest my case.
I doubt very seriously that anyone that either you or I know represent a good cross section of the auto industry. I will say I have 3 GM vehicles and 1 Honda and one Airstream. The vehicles are all identical in quality, some of the 1996s have a few fit an finish issues, but then again, so does the Ohio made Accord we have. The Airstream had several issues. An Ohio thing? Nope.

We can go round and round on this issue for many more posts only to agree to disagree, with the one exception, friends don't let friends drive vehicles from ol' Henry.....

I offer the following links to support the fact that the domestics have an image problem. Why, well a lot of folks like you feel that the domestics are junk, but there are issues with nearly every car company on the planet. If you take a look at some of the few I've posted, you'll see the Asian cars also have issues....some similar to what you've seen on that Ford you rented and some worse, some not as bad. We had to fight Honda to cover our 1999 Honda V6 transmission. There were MAJOR issues and still are some lingering ones with the Honda V6 trans, even in the 2004 we have. I am sure you could post just as many links about GM, Ford, Dodge, and I could post links to unhappy owners of Mistubishi (which by the way may not make it if they don't start selling more cars), Mercedes, Range Rover, BMW, Kia, Hyundai, etc, but that would just prove my point further that it's a perception issue. Imperfect machines built by imperfect machines (human or otherwise) will have folks unhappy.

I will admit that for decades Detroit put out very poor vehicles. It will take them decades to turn that tide, I only suggest test driving some of the 2007s and 2008s, you might be surprised, at least in the GM offerings.

Consumer complaints about Toyota Engine Problems

Toyota Prius Software Problems - CarSpace Automotive Forums

Consumer complaints about Nissan Xterra - Multiple Problems

Nissan Recalls - View Nissan Car Recalls, Defects & Problems

Honda CR-V Maintenance and Repair - CarSpace Automotive Forums

Honda Recalls - View Honda Car Recalls, Defects & Problems



Now as for the comments folks make about the global economy they are right on, but I have one question that is burning.......

In a communist and/or socialist country, where the government runs all or most of what is going on, where does all that money go? It seems to me I recall hearing several times that China's military spending dwarfs us, so to me in a communist country, it would seem that the money we give them to build this stuff, so that our tires, iPods and nearly everything else here is sold at a low cost is being used to build their military??!!

On the side of greed, I can also say that some companies here that have overseas manufac of products also add large numbers to the bottom line as only some of the cost savings are passed onto the consumers, to what the free market will allow, so if this is even remotely true, then we have even bigger problems because if we stopped building in 3rd world areas, then these profits would start to evaporate, the stock market would tank, the party would be over and a MAJOR HANGOVER would begin.

My point? Well, once China's labor force wakes up, we will have to find a new place or places as the old ones become near or at 1st world labor costs. Eventually, the whole world will be shopped for labor when everyone gets up to a certain level. One thing is nearly for sure, the US and a few other countries may not see manufac return, because the costs here will always be a step above what it is elsewhere.

Any thoughts on these last two points?
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Old 04-08-2007, 12:21 AM   #41
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Just a few words

Hi, just a few words about what some of you have said. Shoes made in China. I work in the shop at a Ford dealer and need good, safe, and slip proof shoes; So I have been wearing Doc Martins. [Made in England] Now my last two pair of English Doc Martins are now made in China.
I also try to buy American, but if I limit myself to American made items, I would have nearly nothing. I just bought a pair of BAL tire chocks. [Made in China]
Tools, As a professional mechanic, I bought all high dollar, high quality tools; But for home / occasional use I can get by with cheaper tools.
As a tool dealer for eight years, [Mac Tools] I was embarrassed to know some of the tools we sold were from taiwon. Mostly hydraulic jacks and body shop tools and some air tools. But when my customers came out to my truck to purchase an air ratchet, $99.00 for foreign made, or $175.00 for American made. Most went for the cheaper one.
Wal-Mart. I personally don't like some of their practices, but they are here to stay. One example: Oatmeal dog shampoo [made by 8 in 1 ] sells for $12.95 in pet stores and when on sale you can find it for $9.95 but at Wal-Mart the same exact same thing sells $2.95 every day. I am going to retire soon and in my age group I feel we have paid excessively for everything though out our life time and I don't have the money to throw in the trash over the principal of Wal-Marts practices; So I will continue to shop there to buy the same product for much less money.
Airstream. Take your LED tail lights out of your new American made Airstream and the chrome bezels are made in Taiwon and the LED light module is made in China. [At least mine are.]

Maybe I should have said "Just a lot of words".

And the answer to everything is: GREED
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Old 04-08-2007, 01:04 AM   #42
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All good points guys ,its just a fact that the PRICE in TODAYS world has
become the MAIN thing over quality .Now not everyone feels that way
as we here want quality ,but we unfortunately are not in charge .In 1970
no body would have even gave a look at an import ,no one could beat a
Hemi Charger or a 70 chevy Super cheyenne pickup ,or an airstream, still rules today ,and thats good ! A good fair price with quality is fine with me .

Scott
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