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Old 08-11-2013, 11:19 AM   #155
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H Capri, Appreciate your input, forums are the place to discuss different ideas so you may not agree with what I reported from the seminar delivered by a camping world technician at the New Braunfels, TX location on Saturday August 10.

Here a couple of links to information form Good Year on tire inflation. The inflation pressure marked on the sidewall is for max rated load at 65 MPH. You may go lower or higher to accommodate lower loads or higher speeds.

http://www.tirerack.com/images/tires...plications.pdf
http://www.goodyearrvtires.com/pdfs/rv_inflation.pdf
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Old 08-11-2013, 11:20 AM   #156
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Just saying hello and saying this stuff is interesting reading about tires. Nothing to add or debate, just watching with significant interest.

Gary

PS I did take a pic of those Michelins at Jackson Center this summer in the lobby, yup.

I just took my rig out yesterday for a 1 hour spin just to run it and check prior to our next trip. I have recently started storing with a pair of strong screw jacks from 1 ton Dodge's taking a good amount of weight off of the tires and axles. Not in the air, but jacks are taking a good amount of weight.
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Old 08-11-2013, 12:36 PM   #157
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Correct my original failure was the ST D rated 225 75R 15 Marathon, inflation 65 psi. The two tires that failed next were ST E rated 225 75R 15 Maxxis inflation 80 psi.

Currently I using the LT E ratedMichelin 225 75R 16 inflation 80 psi. No failures as of now but I just am on one year of use. The Goodyear failed on my last tow of its 3rd season. The 2 Maxxis tires failed on their first tow of season 4.

Jack
Jack,
Were the failures on the front or rear axles or both?
Thanks
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Old 08-11-2013, 01:21 PM   #158
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Jack,
Were the failures on the front or rear axles or both?
Thanks
Front axle. You would think that would be a smoking gun, but at this point I'm not sure what the correlation might be. No abnormal tread wear and the trailer sits level when towing.

Jack
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Old 08-11-2013, 01:38 PM   #159
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Just got back for a Tire Seminar at Camping World today and took away the following advice.

- LT tires can squirm so much the bead loses contact with the wheel when backing up because the sidewall construction is different than the ST.

- Tread belt separation is common when trailer has not been moved for six months and is then taken out - reason given was high sustained static load on single spot of tire. Ther was no way he knew of to visually confirm this. Many people at the seminar had experienced this exact problem and said a second tire blew within an hour or two of the first blowout, and the blowouts caused extensive damage.
- Presenter recommended one or more of the following to prevent this:
- Overinflate tire by 20-25 % when parking for long periods
- Move trailer every 30 days so tires not sitting on the same spot
- Unload the trailer tires by taking weight out of trailer and/or jacking up trailer

- Presenter recommend underinflating tires by 10% from max rated load when traveling to prevent heat build up, he had a table for GYM's that showed the max rated speed vs inflation pressure. Nominally 60 PSI = 60 MPH, 65 PSI = 65 MPH

- Presenter stated driving at higher speeds tends to reduce tire wear and fuel mileage

- Presenter stated that life of a tire was nominally 5 years whether sitting on shelf or rolling along the highway.

Presenter data was from major tire manufacturers including Goodyear.


Jim
And the "presenter" had a Bachelor of Science degree from what school? and had worked as a Tire Engineer with product responsibility for what tire company?

I would challenge the "presenter" to provide any scientific date that supports his recommendation to "underinflate" a tire.

I do have a BSME from Ohio Northern Univ. I do hold two US Patents for tire designs. I do have 40 years experience with tire design responsibility. I have been personally responsible for conducting well over 10,000 tire autopsies to learn the "cause" for the failure.
While he said some correct things he clearly has had no formal training in tire design and I would doubt he has ever performed a failed tire autopsy.
I have given training class to US DOT engineers on failed tire inspection and analysis.

I wonder if the "presenter" can explain this failure.


SO here we have a "new" tire i.e. zero miles, mounted as a spare. Clearly it has failed. How does the idea of parking for long time causing failure work? Capri, you are not allowed to answer.


I think the presenter should have informed the people "Hi, I'm not a real tire engineer, but I play one at Camping World"
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Old 08-11-2013, 01:51 PM   #160
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What did you agree with?

Tireman, Glad you commented. What did the presenter say that you agree with? And a question for you: What is the tire construction difference between an ST tire and LT tire? Do you have a preference for use on Airstream Trailers?

Jim
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Old 08-11-2013, 02:13 PM   #161
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Originally Posted by Tireman9 View Post

And the "presenter" had a Bachelor of Science degree from what school? and had worked as a Tire Engineer with product responsibility for what tire company?

I would challenge the "presenter" to provide any scientific date that supports his recommendation to "underinflate" a tire.

I do have a BSME from Ohio Northern Univ. I do hold two US Patents for tire designs. I do have 40 years experience with tire design responsibility. I have been personally responsible for conducting well over 10,000 tire autopsies to learn the "cause" for the failure.
While he said some correct things he clearly has had no formal training in tire design and I would doubt he has ever performed a failed tire autopsy.
I have given training class to US DOT engineers on failed tire inspection and analysis.

I wonder if the "presenter" can explain this failure.

SO here we have a "new" tire i.e. zero miles, mounted as a spare. Clearly it has failed. How does the idea of parking for long time causing failure work? Capri, you are not allowed to answer.

I think the presenter should have informed the people "Hi, I'm not a real tire engineer, but I play one at Camping World"
Meeces? That's plural fer mice...

Seriously, looks like it was over inflated? Or way something thrown from TV? Or failed when put on ground as spare?????

Obviously I don't know....
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Old 08-11-2013, 02:23 PM   #162
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I work in medicine. In order for me to effectively explain or debate a "controversial" concept with either lay people or with fellow professionals....it is of great help to cite the actual peer reviewed research on the subject.

Without that step, largely it is people making arguments from authority. Nothing wrong necessarily with having authority on a subject...but it seems to me that much of these debates NEVER cite meaningful research for onlookers to review.

Usually it helps if there is a "scientific consensus" that is based on the more inclusive "meta" analysis of the wealth of data on a given topic....but it often seems that there is very little or no useful specific research about say trailer tires, or hitches, etc....just personal expertise and aggregations of personal experience.

Or so it seems to me.

For the record, I do appreciate reading all points of view on the subject (and others), their personal experience, and knowing their credentials also does add weight.

I guess what I am saying is...if there are peer reviewed controlled trials on this subject, will the experts share them? Thanks.
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Old 08-11-2013, 02:59 PM   #163
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Let's see.... a seminar presenter at CW. I just looked on their website, and they sell.... GYM ST tires. I bet they had them for sale in the store too.

Coincidence, that he recommended them ? Hmmmmm, let me ponder that a while....
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Old 08-11-2013, 03:30 PM   #164
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Peer review does exist in tire failure analysis. There is a published book with pictures of various tire conditions. Tire Maintenance Council Radial Tire Condition Analysis Guide. The conditions, their probable cause and corrective action, if any, has been reviewed by Engineers (note capitol E as indicating having at least a BS degree not engineers as too many technicians call themselves. This might be like a "medical tech" calling themselves a Doctor)
An older version (1994)of this document can be found HERE. Readers should be aware that this is primarily heavy truck with a strong focus on older design tires, so has been superseded by the new "Radial Tire" version.

These Tire Engineers have been selected by the various tire companies such as Michelin, Bridgestone, Goodyear and others to reach consensus for each condition.
I personally have taken the photographs and provided input for a number of conditions as published in the current manual. The book is copyrighted so I cannot provide copies from the manual.
I do write a blog RVTireSafety.com and have given a number of examples of various conditions using other photographs similar to those published in the TMC book.
I am "published" having an article in "Tire Technology International", an industry technical journal.

Despite all of the above, I do note that many do not want to be presented with data and facts that do not match their per-concieved ideas.

Saying we need to consider all points of view is really no more correct than suggesting we need to give equal credence to a Amazon witch doctor as we do to the head of Cardiology at a large hospital. While those holding various ideas and concepts have that right, not all ideas or concepts deserve equal attention nor should they be given equal credence.

Roger
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Old 08-11-2013, 03:34 PM   #165
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Tireman9,

No clue what did it in. But that can I call it a radial cut in the sidewall is a puzzler along with the zero miles statement. I'll be watching and hoping to learn from your follow ups.

Thanks for offering your professional background and insight.

Stay tuned folks, same Bat time, same Bat channel.
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Old 08-11-2013, 03:43 PM   #166
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Tireman, Glad you commented. What did the presenter say that you agree with? And a question for you: What is the tire construction difference between an ST tire and LT tire? Do you have a preference for use on Airstream Trailers?

Jim
I agree with "- Unload the trailer tires by taking weight out of trailer and/or jacking up trailer
- Driving at higher speeds tends to reduce tire wear and fuel mileage"

I do NOT agree that exceeding the max inflation on a tire is a good idea. I do feel inflating tires to the max is a good idea for tandem axle trailers as "Finite Eliment Analysis" indicates that setting trailer tires to their max will decrease (but not eliminate) the unique inter-ply shear forces seen with multi axle trailers.
I would doubt that the "presenter" even knows what Interply Shear is.
I have a POST specifically for trailer owners.

I cannot recommend a specific tire for all applications. I can only provide guidelines that if followed will reduce the likelihood of having a failure.
Many of these guidelines and suggestion have already been covered in my blog.
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Old 08-11-2013, 04:30 PM   #167
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I agree with "- Unload the trailer tires by taking weight out of trailer and/or jacking up trailer
Just curious for an Airstream. If you wanted to relieve weight by jacking it up where would you do it? We know we have the jack points that are labeled on the belly area just to the rear of the trailer. However in using this spot technically the wheels on the other side of the trailer are on the ground. Is there really anywhere that is safe to jack up, especially since you are doing both sides, that won't cause any structural issues? Then the next question, if there is are safe areas, how much do you jack up?

I've only taken a trailer off the ground once and that was an SOB that weighed about 2,000 lbs. I did it with 4 jack stands under the front and rear frame members that ran from side to side of the trailer. First I lowered the front of the trailer by the hitch jack. I put two jack stands at the rear frame and then cranked the trailer up. Once I got all four wheels off the ground I gave the jack a couple of additional turns to raise the front of the trailer slightly. I slipped in the jack stands on the front frame member and lowered the hitch jack taking all the weight off it. Pretty easy and this allowed me to remove all 4 wheels at once to allow me to get a new set of tires. This wouldn't be possible on an Airstream though.

Jack
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Old 08-11-2013, 05:04 PM   #168
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I have a POST specifically for trailer owners.
Uh Fellow AS owners, take a minute to take a quick look at his link, then go get a cold one and start clicking and reading.

I've just hit the tips of these articles.

Tireman9, Thanks for the info, lots to learn.

Had to look up NOU, never knew about that one, been to Ravenna several times, horse show.

Gary
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