Airstream Tire Failure Poll

[jcanavera]

My failures of ST tires came at the end of year 3 or beginning of year 4 of use. I just think that with my heavy slide out unit, an ST tire's useful life is no more than 3 years. From a cost stand point I believe that an LT tire in my situation is more economical if you get at least 5 seasons from them rather than 3 from the ST. Compound that by the damage a failed ST tire can inflict, a good LT tire has a lot of cost benefits.

Jack

[Gene]

Another factor of the gazillion factors. My anecdotal experience is that a tire is more likely to pick up a screw or nail when the tread is less deep, thus a well worn tire is more vulnerable to road hazards like that. New Marathons have substantially less tread than new Michelin LR E LTX tires—perhaps that may increase road hazard vulnerability. Someone get a grant and publish the results.

Gene

[Eagle & Bear]

The underlying problem is that setting standards for industry, providing product oversight, deregulation and conducting studies that will allow us to draw conclusions about the kind/make of tire would be the safest and most economical for our Airstreams is not possible in this political climate.

[Tireman9]

Originally Posted by Eagle & Bear

The underlying problem is that setting standards for industry, providing product oversight, deregulation and conducting studies that will allow us to draw conclusions about the kind/make of tire would be the safest and most economical for our Airstreams is not possible in this political climate.

I'm a bit confused. It seems you want US DOT to set better standards and improve product oversight but at the same time are asking for deregulation. These objectives are in direct opposition on each other.

I completely agree that conducting studies is much less likely given the current political climate of cutting budgets for DOT.

One note regarding the DOT. They have a well established system of collecting data which helps them prioritize the investigations they can conduct within their current budget. The main problem is us, the RV owners. As a group we do an abysmal job of filing complete meaningful complaints on the NHTSA reporting site. Over the past few years I have reviewed complaints filed and of the few that have been submitted (smaller number than seen in this thread) many have incorrect or missing information. Many can't even provide the correct tire size or brand, never mind the most critical bit of information the full DOT serial.

As a challenge to see if you could file a complaint see if you can do this.
- Assume you had a tire failure on your Left front position and after having the tire replaced by a service truck or at a tire store 150 miles from home you decide to file a complaint. Remember you no longer have the pieces of the failed tire as you didn't want to carry it around and don't have space to store it for the rest of your vacation.
1. Can you properly identify the brand and design tire that failed
2. Can you provide the complete DOT serial?
3. Can you provide a statement of the actual tire load?
4. Can you confirm the tire inflation just prior to the failure. This does not mean the inflation an hour or couple of days before the failure but the inflation 5 min before the failure.

If you can't accurately answer all 4 questions without going out and inspecting your Left Front tire how do you expect to provide NHTSA with actionable information so they can consider initiating an investigation?

FYI I have covered the topic of filing complaints with NHTSA a couple of times on my blog if you need more information.

[r carl]

I don't think NHTSA is interested in a trailer tire like they would be in a LT tire.

[Gene]

Originally Posted by Tireman9

I'm a bit confused. It seems you want US DOT to set better standards and improve product oversight but at the same time are asking for deregulation. These objectives are in direct opposition on each other.

I wondered about that too.

Without DOT regulations, we would have a lot less information about tires.

Gene

[Eagle & Bear]

Sorry about the wording. Bad editing on my part. The trend has been to deregulate industry but if that was not enough, industry has representatives embedded in government agencies that are charged with oversight responsibilities. Just think about the make up of government agency boards. They are often weighed down with people who are from the industries that they are supposed to have oversight of.

Even if we have standards and regulations there is little that is done to enforce them unless there is a catastrophic event that media just will not let loose of. Since the tire industry sees oversight as a threat (not an opportunity to improve a product) any preventative measures (the compilation and analysis of data) and enforcement will never happen. This problem is compounded when tires are not produced in the US. If a defective product from China is discovered they shut down the company, claim bankruptcy and start their production of the same product under another name.

Up until now I did not know that NHTSA took information about tire failures. I don't remember any tire dealers telling me that if a tire fails that I should report it to NHTSA. I guess I will need to read the fine print next time I buy tires.

In additon, private non profits like Consumer Reports do not have the funding to conduct studies of niche products like tires used on Airstreams. What we are left with is our ability to identify the tires that fail the least. I was trained as an epidemiologist and understand the development and administration of surveys. Surveys take a lot of time and money to develop and administer. This survey can only offer inferential data but it is better than nothing and I applaud Phoenix's efforts and all of the supportive comments that have been made here.

[Tireman9]

Originally Posted by r carl

I don't think NHTSA is interested in a trailer tire like they would be in a LT tire.

The issue is that NHTSA has to prioritize. Fatalities of course take presidence followed by big damage claims. But numbers also play an important part.

People simply saying "My tire blew-up when I was driving across Arizona." is not going to count as there is not enough information to allow NHTSA to accumulate complaints from others who had a failure of the same product but can't link the two different complaints because the people failed to provide actionable information.

Lots of complaints here about GY Marathons but the number in NHTSA database is single digit if I recall correctly. It certainly is not past 100.

[CapriRacer]

I am of the opinion that NHTSA is actually MORE stringent than in the past.

When I retired 2 years ago, EVERY tire manufacturer and importer, every quarter, had to report on what tires were returned to them. Yes, they can exclude certain non-street tires, low volume tires, old tires, and tires returned for certain conditions (like wearout). But they had to report EVERYTHING. Tires simply returned, tires that caused damage, tires involved in fatalities (and those are the ones NHTSA really focused on).

They also require production volumes, so they can do failure rates. This was somewhat controversial as this is vital information about how well the tires are performing and any tire manufacturer would sell their soul for that info on a competitor (assuming, of course, they hadn't already sold their soul earlier for something less valuable!) Not only would knowing what a competitor's failure rate was compared to your be something you could advertise (discreetly, of course), it would also point to which tires should be your benchmark. That would save Millions of bucks in R&D costs.

Needless to say, the tire manufacturers wanted secrecy in exchange for giving up that information. They got it.

As Roger said, if there is a shortcoming, its that not enough people do a good job of reporting problems to NHTSA. They can't know there is a problem without that - and they will not act on rumor.

[Eagle & Bear]

Good to know about the NHTSA reporting. Like everyone else we have no storage so I have done what I could to get rid of the dead tire. Since I have TPMS and know what information NHTSA needs I can provide them with all of the information.

[Tireman9]

Eagle & Bear Grab a few pictures too. This means both overall and close-up. Full Sun is best and be sure to use highest resolution possible.
Tires are difficult to photograph properly. NHTSA may or may not ask for the pictures but if/when you file a complaint it doesn't hurt to say you have pictures available.

[mrfrank9]

completed survey.
TT still in shop - should be out this week. getting a spare put on , as 1998 excella did not have
a bracket or spare.

side note: all of the shop people i spoke with said that after about three years, you are taking
your chances on an ST tire anyway.

[jcanavera]

Originally Posted by mrfrank9

completed survey.
TT still in shop - should be out this week. getting a spare put on , as 1998 excella did not have
a bracket or spare.

side note: all of the shop people i spoke with said that after about three years, you are taking
your chances on an ST tire anyway.

My belt separation on my first Marathon happened on the last trip of year three. My belt separations on my E rated Maxxis tires occurred on the first trip of year 4. Dependent on how heavy your trailer is, I think ST's become marginal after 3 years of use.

Jack

[Tom_T]

Note that I had no tire failure(s) in the past 5 years on our restored 1960 Avion T20 vintage kin since we bought it in July 2012 on our MAXXIS 8008 ST225/75R15-E 8PR tires, nor had the PO since they restored it in 2007 in same size GYMs from CW (so an 8 year history on this TT).

However, I did fill in those questions on tire size, load, mfgr, # axles, etc. which would give info on the tires & TT. Hopefully that doesn't skew or give erroneous results - as they were for info only - not failure counts.

If it does cause errors, then the Moderator(s) can feel free to cancel those entries causing problems.

BTW - this type of poll would be far more helpful in identifying the GOOD tires & mfgrs. - if it actually were a 2 sided survey - showing both the NON-failure tires & counts.

Also, a few blank line spaces between the questions - or between the sets of answers of same Q's - would be extremely helpful in getting through this survey!

Some things to think about in the future!

Cheers!
Tom
///////

[OTRA15]

The Non-ST Tire Failure Poll thread caught my attention this morning due to recent activity and further instructions from Phoenix:

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f438...ll-157690.html

This older thread has no similar recent instructions, but I am guessing that it should be completed by ST tire folks who have not had any tire failures, like us. Thus I have checked the 2nd line for No failures, and have not checked any other boxes. [Edit -- 48.53% report No failures in the poll results]

Right, Phoenix?

There are certain lines which are worded in such a way that it would be logical to answer [tire pressure, roads normally driven etc.] but it is not clear that folks with NO failures should complete them. I am guessing (like others have on many tire threads) that many GYM ST tire owners have not had failures, and that it would be helpful to have a gauge of this subset of the AS population. But this more general poll does not appear to be the right place to do that.



Thanks for doing your best to get some data on all tire failures, Phoenix, even if the results are somewhat anecdotal.

Peter

PS -- Edit -- The posts on the first page do not seem to answer the questions raised above, although in Post #6 Phoenix does recognize the need for more polls to fine-tune things. I have not seen any other new polls, but will look for them next.

[Jacob D]

Originally Posted by TinLoaf

I'm still running my original 2005 Marathons that were made in Canada. I'm very careful about keeping them at 65 psi and haven't had a single tire issue in over 50,000 miles.

I clipped a curb and my front curbside vertical alignment is off so that tire (only that tire) is wearing hard on the outside edge. I have an Alumapalooza service appointment next month to fix the alignment and replace the tires.

The Canadian Marathons have been so good to me that I'm really hesitant to change them, but the time has come. Only time will tell how well the Chinese Marathons hold up, but I'm hopeful.

Hello Tin Loaf....I had similar experience with Canadian GYM's. Ran a set for 13 years and about 40,000 miles. Had a near crash in a rough construction zone near St. Louis in the 13th year that apparently affected the front right tire that did not fail, but began to wear a bit on the outside edge. There was little wear on the other three, even though at home I have to cut sharply into my driveway while backing. I replaced the set because of the age (and one tire wearing) with Chinese GYM's. So far I remain happy with the Chinese GYM's after 3 years and about 4,000 miles. When parked at home They are on pavement outside. If parked for more than a month I cover them and spray them once a month with Armor All Tire Foam when not covered.

[Phoenix]

Below is the link to the sister-poll that was created in May 2011, "for travel trailers with no tire failures". Like this thread, the data on "good tires" are mostly limited to ST tires; because 16" wheels and LT tires had not gained much traction by 2011.

Airstream Tire Poll for Travel Trailers with No Tire Failures

Originally, I thought that we could pick up tips from those who had somehow avoided the tire problems most of us had experienced. However, as time passed, most members bypassed the "no tire failures" poll. I can only guess at why it languished; perhaps, because the questions did not address a topic that people were interested in at the time, and more likely that it's just boring with few (or no) earth-shattering insights. It simply states, "My tires are fine", which is not nearly as compelling as "My GYMs exploded and damaged my Airstream!"

In any case, I think the poll is still open for those who wish to add their experiences with "good" ST tires.

[Tireman9]

Setting aside the question of the accuracy of the tire condition reporting one very critical item is missing and that is the full DOT serial number for every tire along with the date of failure or removal from service.
Date of removal would provide insight to tire age at removal.
The DOT also includes information on exactly which tire plant made the tire. Many times a given size or line of tires may be made at more than one plant If you get many "failures" from one plant and very few from another plant that provides critical information for investigators.
Lacking the above facts makes this poll just a random collection of comments and of no real value.

If you do not have training is product failure analysis or statistics maybe you can understand the idea of also reporting the state of manufacturer of the RV. Bet we would find a very strong correlation of tire failures on RVs made in the state of OHIO.

[Phoenix]

Tireman9,

While originally ignoring your post, I have decided that your critical comments deserve responses. See my comments below, in BLUE TEXT:

• "Setting aside the question of the accuracy of the tire condition reporting one very critical item is missing and that is the full DOT serial number for every tire along with the date of failure or removal from service. Date of removal would provide insight to tire age at removal. The DOT also includes information on exactly which tire plant made the tire. Many times a given size or line of tires may be made at more than one plant If you get many 'failures' from one plant and very few from another plant that provides critical information for investigators."
  
  Obviously, the data you seek would be used for tire failure analysis to determine root cause for feedback to a tire manufacturer. A tire company could then use this information to correct the design and/or manufacturing process at specific plants to reduce tire failure rates and improve reliability. I’m sure you would also like photos of the failed tires, and even the tire carcasses, if available.
  
  Unfortunately, this was not the goal of the Airstream Tire Failure Poll, which was written over five years ago. The purpose of this poll was to determine the scope of tire failures on Airstreams, which were constantly being reported on AirForums.com. Also, while DOT serial numbers, photos and failed tire samples are useful to you, these items are not commonly saved by Airstream owners after suffering catastrophic tire failures on the road. Plus, there was never any intent to feed collected information back to tire manufacturers, as it was highly unlikely that any corrective action would be taken, based on the feedback from a small poll of a couple of hundred Airstream owners.
  
  
• "Lacking the above facts makes this poll just a random collection of comments and of no real value."
  
  Your criticism belittles the real-world experiences of the poll participants. Each entry is an Airstream owner’s perception of a tire failure; and while it may not provide the information you seek, perception is reality for that owner. The information collected from participants met the goal of this poll, which was to determine the tires that failed and the circumstances surrounding those failures. And, many AirForums members have used this poll data when making subsequent tire buying decisions.
  
  Therefore, this poll is not “just a random collection of comments and of no real value”; because many members have switched to non-ST tires, and they have had fewer problems with them.
  
  
• "If you do not have training is product failure analysis or statistics maybe you can understand the idea of also reporting the state of manufacturer of the RV. Bet we would find a very strong correlation of tire failures on RVs made in the state of OHIO."
  
  While this last comment was probably meant to be facetious, please know that I am a retired quality assurance manager who worked in the electronics manufacturing industry for over 40 years, and I do have extensive experience in product failure analysis and statistics.
  
  And, to be clear, I am being facetious in stating that:
  
  For the purpose of this poll, “the state of manufacture of the RV” is unnecessary; as unlike you, who do not own an Airstream, AirForums members know that most of our Airstreams were manufactured in Jackson Center, Ohio.

Respectfully,

Phoenix

[r carl]

Maybe one or two guy's around here were on the ST design team that laid the egg that cracked.