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Old 11-17-2008, 12:04 PM   #1
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16" tires installed on 27FB factory 3800lb Dexters

During the last campout, 62 Overlander noticed a bulge on the front curbside tire. The cords had separated and resulted in the tell tale "bulge" and crowning on the tread...

These are factory 15" marathon tires that came with the Cosmo when we received her from the factory last July. Based on our calculations on the mileage on the trucks towing her and also adding the mileage for delivery from JC to Weatherford, we estimate the tires had no more than 25K miles on them.

I'm not going to go into bashing the brand or the country or origin, but will say that my motivation to move to 16"s were based on construction, design, and load rating of tires available for that size.

With 62 Overlanders help and Artstreams guidance, I decided to spend the money to purchase (5) HiSpec Series 5 directional rims and (5) Michelin XPS Rib tires.

Series05


Michelin Americas Truck Tires XPS RIB® Page

I purchased the rims and tires from Discount Tire at the following prices:

Rims only (16x7 0 offset 6x5 bolt pattern) $100 each.
Tires (225 75 R16) $249 each

Prices included install but not the high pressure valve stems which I will go into later.
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Old 11-17-2008, 12:41 PM   #2
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Rim and Tire Details

I went with the HiSpec wheels, after researching their reliability and safety. I would have loved to find a sold forged aluminum wheel like Alcoa or similar, but at what point does $ and safety become crossed in overkill?

The HiSpec wheels are cast and made in China, but are 3200lb rated at 85 psi. The clearcoat is warrantied for 1 year, but at this point, I've found a good wheel shop in Austin to refinish rims at a reasonable price so I'm not gonna stress on the finish anymore. (I have to remember I have an Airstream that has some corrosion on various parts on her anyways, why stress on the wheels now?)

In speaking to HiSpec, I was forewarned to use stick on weights during the balancing and use a thin walled socket and hand install the lug nuts, as most of the damage they find are from the initial install with the clearcoat edge of the lug nut holes damaged from an install. I did find this to be true that the you must use a thin wall socket. My 4 way tire iron worked on the factory rims, but not these. I needed a 3/4 deep socket from Sears/Craftsman to start the lugs and torque them down.

Tires were selected for the weight capacity (although with the current factory Dexters at 3800lb each I am currently limited to the axles I have). I do have plans to up the axles to 4100 or even 4400 lb later with the 35 degree angle, but that will be done only when I have extra $ (never) or when the current axles begin to show sag.

Based on my GVWR of the trailer, I should be at no more that 7600 lbs. With that in mind and based on the tire pressure weigh capacity, a pressure of 50 psi would give me a capacity of 1940 lbs per axle end, (7760 lbs) so anything over 50 would result in a capacity that was really past my current axle limitations anyways. Since I have (not always) run a bit "heavy" with full loads of cargo, water, and sewage, I figure a psi of 50-55 will be plenty for now.

Another reason the tires were selected was due to the research on their reliability. Although I am sure it has happened, I could not find a documented case on the internet where this tire had a blowout. I am sure you can cause a blowout from certain road hazards, but I was unable to find one where a blowout occurred for "no readily apparent" reason. My research did find that these tires ran cooler as compared to the marathons on the same stretch of road in same heat / and load placed on them. Additionally, the steel belt construction on the sidewalls will better handle the "sideways scrape" when making sharp turns on the tandem.

These tires are retread-able, but I would never do that. I will plan to run them no more than 4 years, and replace them even if tread remains.
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Bandit the Siberian Husky (RIP) & "G" the Min-Pin (RIP)
Cosmo the Custom 2008 27FB Intl CCD
Maxwell the 1964 Globe Trotter
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Old 11-17-2008, 01:13 PM   #3
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Kevin, thank you so much for this insight. I am in the throws of the same dilemma with Lucy, my '05 25FB. I had three blowouts with the OEM Marathons. I went to Maxxis 8008, Load Range E's. They did really well for about 25,000 miles when one of them lost pressure due to ply separation at the crown of the tread. I replaced the the bad Maxxis with a Carlisle 10 ply (E), and I am in the process of deciding what to do, as I am fearing that the remaining three Maxxis will follow suit shortly.

Your posts have been very helpful as I have been considering going to 16" wheels. I do have a couple of questions, though.

I've looked at both your tires and your rims on line. Are the XPS Ribs 10 ply? From strictly a looks standpoint, I like the Series 03 and Series 04 better, but I notice that they have an 8mm and 5 mm offset, repectively in the 16x7 size. Did your research show that these would also fit?

I would love to see a picture of your new tires and rims installed on the 27FB.

Brian
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Old 11-17-2008, 01:19 PM   #4
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Hi Kevin and Prim,

I think you will be alot happier with the Michelins. As you know we had to problems with the Marathons with less than 5K miles on the trailer.

The reason Stan and I did the axle change on our relatively new trailer was the loss of CCC we would have encountered after adding the 2nd AC, 8 optima batteries, solar panels, inverter, etc.

As you already know, we are FTers and the weight of these additions would have reduced our CCC substantially. Our original CCC was 2180 lbs. After the axle change and additions, JC recertified our unit for a 2500 CCC. The original GVWR was 11500 and now it is 12600. This was a crucial improvement for us. I know I still have to watch the CGVW of my TV, which I do.

It was great seeing the two of you again. I am sure you will enjoy your latest upgrade.

Happy Trails, 'shaker

BTW- We are still at home due to Stan having a bug. And speaking of bugs, are still finding happy and healthy lady bugs in our AS.
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Old 11-17-2008, 01:28 PM   #5
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Dry Fit - Clearance issues

A quick glance at the wheel wells showed that I would have more clearance between the front wheels and "fender / trim" than the rears, which means I had 2 choices:
  1. spend more $$ to replace axles with a 35 degree angle
  2. trim some fender / wheel well area
With the unexpected 2K I had invested in the wheels and tires, I opted to stick with the existing axles and figure out what and how to trim.

As you can see from the pic, one is with the OEM marathon, the other is dry fitting the new rim and tire.

(Sorry for the quality of the pics - I forgot the camera and all I had was my phone....)
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Bandit the Siberian Husky (RIP) & "G" the Min-Pin (RIP)
Cosmo the Custom 2008 27FB Intl CCD
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Old 11-17-2008, 01:47 PM   #6
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Rurb side Rear - Measurements

In looking at some of the other newer wide body Airstreams that were in my storage facility (all this is done at the storage lot), I noticed that even a 2008 25FB had varying amounts of clearance between the tire and wheel well lip/trim. Granted some needs to take in account the wear of tire, but all in all - it all varied from 2 fingers to 3 fingers (each of my fingers are about 1/2", and I forgot the tape measure during this run).

So, in order to be more "scientific" and "consistent" with what I already had, I aimed to get the tape measure with the goal of trying to keep the same amount (or more) of wheel clearance I had with the original marathons.

Note that for top clearance, (top of wheel to inner fender ceiling) I had a little over a closed fist of clearance, so I was not worried about any clearance there. Changing the rim and tires to 16"s with the factory axles would only increase my outside diameter from 28.3" to 29.4"m so I was not loosing too much. If I hit anything that causes the wheel to travel up 5-6 inches I have much bigger worries to think about....

So, the bulk of this post will show the clearance between wheel and wheel well lip/trim.

Here are pics of the curb side rear wheel clearance with the new rim and tire:

I forgot to take a pic with the tape measure and the original marathon, but the measurements I had were:

Curb side rear Marathon to wheel well Aluminum trim piece: 1.5"
Curb side rear Michelin to wheel well Aluminum trim piece: 0.5"
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Kevin & Prim Li
Bandit the Siberian Husky (RIP) & "G" the Min-Pin (RIP)
Cosmo the Custom 2008 27FB Intl CCD
Maxwell the 1964 Globe Trotter
Name TBD the 1955 Overlander
WBCCI # 6155
AIR # 6155

2nd love - 2006 28' Safari LS
1st love - 2004 19' CCD Bambi
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Old 11-17-2008, 02:03 PM   #7
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Kevin,

Upgrading to new axles with the 35 degree deflection will still create the same tight space between the fenders and tires. Ask me how I know....

Even after changing our axles and wheels, our tires were very close to the fender. We had to have some of the fender nipped off and the trim reapplied also.

'shaker
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Old 11-17-2008, 02:11 PM   #8
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Kevin, I know aluminum wheels are better looking, but did you look into old fashioned steel wheels? They have to be a lot cheaper.

I am also wondering about how much 16" tires bulge outward on bumps and could they touch the trim and get a shave?

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Old 11-17-2008, 02:26 PM   #9
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Curbside rear - First cuts

I crawled under the trailer and looked at the specific area in question to trim. Keep in mind I have never done any body work before and my tool of choice was a Dremel tool. The last time I used a Dremel was in junior high (please don't do the math) and it was on wood with a pattern guide...

So...with a sharpie pen and a badge as a straight edge, (the card type ones for access to corporate buildings) I measured an inch back from the edge and made a mark. Using that as an apex, I drew a straight line from the existing edge of the banana wrap to the front edge of the trim... I know may not make any sense but another way to word this is to measure an inch back from the closest edge to the tire and then draw a line similar to the existing contours you have...

Note that you do not want to make a straight cut on the aluminum edge trim, bu rather taper and shape the cut such that you have a gradual line that thins down which also allows you enough room to reuse and reposition the factory screws holding the trim further up than prior.

As you can see from the "post surgery" pics below, I have trimmed the banana wrap slightly and tapered the aluminum trim. I now have a little over 1" of clearance between the tire to the nearest trim piece. Plenty of room to roll and deflect (bounce) without hitting...

Lesson learned #1: Note that there are (2) factory screws in place holding the Aluminum trim to the banana wrap. These are originally tuck under such that they are not normally visible unless you bend over to look. Fore anyone performing this surgery, I suggest you remove the top screw (leave the one closes to the end of the trim) and relocate that to the area that will be the new "end" first before any cuts are made. I made the mistake of cutting first, which resulted in the trim piece separating from the banana wrap. This resulting separation makes it difficult to screw back in place so do this first so you wont fight it like I did.

It is quite difficult to drill a hole in the trim piece with one hand while pushing the trim in place with the other... I made one hole thru the trim and missed the banana wrap. The second time I did get the banana wrap, so for now there are 2 screws, but one is decorative.

I think others may find only once screw may be sufficient as well, which is what I did on the street side - to be shown later...

Lesson Learned #2: As mentioned before, my experience with a Dremel is limited, and thus in my inexperienced I used their standard "cutting wheel". This wheel is marginally sufficient in cutting sheet metal such as the banana wrap, but breaks when cutting the channeled tough aluminum trim. I suggest others use the Dremel "EZ Lock" cut off wheels, specifically the 1.5" metal. They last much better than the standard or even fiberglass reinforced ones...

EZ456 EZ Lock 1-1/2" Cut-off Wheels (5 Pack) / Model: EZ456

Lesson Learned #3:

Put down the Dremel when you feel a sneeze coming. The grinding and cutting will result in various particles. I happened to do this on a very windy cold day in Austin this weekend and my allergies got to me. Holding a Sneeze in while holding a Dremel tool with a cutting wheel going thousands of RPMs per minute mid cut will result in a "skip" which causes a slight knick from the rotating wheel to hit the immediate area, such as the banana wrap, resulting in a nice clean "chip like" beveled blemish... Good thing this is on the bottom and the banana wrap Grey color is easy to get...
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Maxwell the 1964 Globe Trotter
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Old 11-17-2008, 02:41 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bambi_Bandit View Post
Curb side rear Marathon to wheel well Aluminum trim piece: 1.5"
Curb side rear Michelin to wheel well Aluminum trim piece: 0.5"
Correction on my notes:

Curb side rear Marathon to wheel well Aluminum trim piece: 0.75"
Curb side rear Michelin to wheel well Aluminum trim piece: 0.3"[/
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Bandit the Siberian Husky (RIP) & "G" the Min-Pin (RIP)
Cosmo the Custom 2008 27FB Intl CCD
Maxwell the 1964 Globe Trotter
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2nd love - 2006 28' Safari LS
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Old 11-17-2008, 02:49 PM   #11
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Curbside Front - Measurements and Trim

As mentioned before, the front clearance was far better than the rears, even with the original Marathons. I probably didn't need to trim the front, but what the heck, the Dremel was already out and I was getting warmed up....

Measurements for the Curb side front as follows:

Curb side Front Marathon to wheel well Aluminum trim piece: 1.5"
Curb side Front Michelin to wheel well Aluminum trim piece: 1"

I neglected to take a photo of the "before" trim, but note that I have trimmed only the "lip" of the edge trim piece. The lip is nearly 0.5" in width and extends beyond the trim channel piece, so this was a cosmetic "nip" more than anything, but did result is me gaining back almost all of what I lost...
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Bandit the Siberian Husky (RIP) & "G" the Min-Pin (RIP)
Cosmo the Custom 2008 27FB Intl CCD
Maxwell the 1964 Globe Trotter
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2nd love - 2006 28' Safari LS
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Old 11-17-2008, 02:57 PM   #12
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Street Side Rear - Mesurements

OK - I was now starting to feel like a pro with this tool... perhaps I should play a doctor on TV???

Taking my own advice from the lesson learned on the curb side, I removed on screw of the 2 that attached the aluminum trim piece. I measured the section that needed to be cut and drilled a hole to replace the screw as that would be my new "end" area of the trim.

Measurements are as follows:
Street side Rear Marathon to wheel well Aluminum trim piece: 0.7"
Street side Rear Michelin to wheel well Aluminum trim piece: 0.3"

Marathon shown below:
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Kevin & Prim Li
Bandit the Siberian Husky (RIP) & "G" the Min-Pin (RIP)
Cosmo the Custom 2008 27FB Intl CCD
Maxwell the 1964 Globe Trotter
Name TBD the 1955 Overlander
WBCCI # 6155
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2nd love - 2006 28' Safari LS
1st love - 2004 19' CCD Bambi
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Old 11-17-2008, 03:04 PM   #13
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Street Side Rear - Cuts (Better Visuals Here)

OK,

As in my previous posts I probably did not describe my cut on the rear sections clearly, so below are better pics of the actual surgery on the street side:

Note the relocation of one of the original 2 screws holding the aluminum trim to the banana wrap. This is the screw I advise to relocate first prior to any cuts (after measurements of course). I have elected to use only 1 on this section.

You can see the "cut area" from the view from the outside as well as the wheel well. This is a pretty good visual reference as the cut piece is held in place with my hand.

Post surgery results in nearly 1.25" of clearance. (Same on the Curb side as well)
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Kevin & Prim Li
Bandit the Siberian Husky (RIP) & "G" the Min-Pin (RIP)
Cosmo the Custom 2008 27FB Intl CCD
Maxwell the 1964 Globe Trotter
Name TBD the 1955 Overlander
WBCCI # 6155
AIR # 6155

2nd love - 2006 28' Safari LS
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Old 11-17-2008, 03:15 PM   #14
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Street Side - Front Cut

As mentioned prior on the Front, I trimmed only the "lip" of the aluminum trim. Sorry I forgot to take a "before" pic, but this is what the trim piece looks like after the "lip" is removed.

The angled cut is what I removed, so you can get a reference to what was there prior to the cut.
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Bandit the Siberian Husky (RIP) & "G" the Min-Pin (RIP)
Cosmo the Custom 2008 27FB Intl CCD
Maxwell the 1964 Globe Trotter
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2nd love - 2006 28' Safari LS
1st love - 2004 19' CCD Bambi
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