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Old 12-31-2013, 05:51 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by CapriRacer View Post
First, the difference in rolling resistance between tires is much, much greater than the difference in tire size.

Second, it turns out that if you use the same inflation pressure, larger tires get ever so slightly better RR.

I explore that here:

Barry's Tire Tech
I appreciate the link (is that you? did you write that?), and based on that link, bigger equaling less RR is not a universal truth. There are lots of factors to determine that, which is based on the individual tire. So, maybe, maybe not, especially considering the two sizes in question (aspect ratio is not changing) and the conditions under which they'll be used.
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Old 12-31-2013, 06:37 AM   #16
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I appreciate the link (is that you? did you write that?)........
Yes, I did.
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Originally Posted by kry226 View Post
..., and based on that link, bigger equaling less RR is not a universal truth. There are lots of factors to determine that, which is based on the individual tire. So, maybe, maybe not, especially considering the two sizes in question (aspect ratio is not changing) and the conditions under which they'll be used.
There is some variability in the data - and I think some of it stems from the fact that there are OE tires in the mix. Some of it may also stem from differences in production facilities. There were a lot of things that they didn't try to control, so in that respect, I am disappointed in the study.

On the other hand, the point of the study was to see if tire size had any affect - and it did, rendering the idea of a government regulation impossible with the data available.

I did see one followup study that indicated the idea of using RRC wasn't as simple as it might seem - that different tires react differently to differences in load,. Unfortunately, that study was only presented at a tire seminar and was never published in print form. I suspect that the study didn't show a large enough difference to worry about, but I wasn't fast enough to be sure from the graphs being shown. However, if there was a difference that rendered the RRC concept as totally invalid, that would have been a major upheaval in the idea that government regulation of RR was possible - and that didn't happen.

I'd like to have seen more follow up studies published, but that is what is available and we'll have to live with what we have.
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Old 01-01-2014, 05:21 PM   #17
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Will it fit?

W/O mounting a tire and wheel combo but just looking at the tire relative to the wheel arches I'm initially optimistic. I focused on the rear of both rear tires due to the swing-arm arc of the axle. The curb side was slightly closer that the street side at 2". The flange that would be the 1st point of contact can easily be trimmed to gain 5/16-3/8" possibly.

This is still a researching idea, haven't made a decision other than 16's.

Now a follow up to a few comments:

Bottom line is that if you need 245s, you're overweight.

A. I don't agree. We do not carry any water in any tanks and not a lot of gear.

Is your 30' a tri-axle or is that just the 34s?

A. My 30' is built on 2 5,000 Lb rated axles, 4 tires.

Also, is that 10k# the loaded for camping weight on the scales w/WD applied?

A. I quoted 10,300 lbs as GVWR from the AS specs in the owners manual.

When I took the trailer home from dealer I stopped at a CAT Scale 4 years ago the ticket recorded 7700 lbs for the trailer. I did have the Equal-I-Zer hooked up but did not remove and reweigh, didn't know anything about the practice.

One size amendment, I need to add the current tire spec the MAXXIS ST225/75R15 has a 28.3" OD for about 2.2" increase in tire OD or 1.1" increase in the radius.

I'm headed to 16's for peace of mind based on ST failure history vs. 16" satisfaction I'm never going to claim I've got this all figured out, but I will make my decision.

Thanks for all of your comments and interest.

Regards,

Gary
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Old 01-01-2014, 06:14 PM   #18
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The 15" OEM GYM ST tires are rated 2,540 pounds each. The diameter is 28.3".

The Michelin LT225/75R16/E LTX M/S2 is rated 2,680 pounds @ 80 psi, or 10,720 pounds for the four tires. The diameter is 29.2". Michelin part number is P/N 05681. This is the tire supplied by Airstream as an option on the Eddie Bauer models and/or at the factory can be installed onto your trailer. It elevates the trailer just under 0.5" higher than the 15" GYM tire.

Airstream uses the SenDel T03-66655BM (black matte highlights) wheel (rated 3,500 pounds at 80psi) while I selected the T03-66655T which is the same model only no black paint.

There are other instances in the Airstream product line where the two axle ratings together are less than the GVW of the coach. because around 10% will be GVW will be tongue weight. Thus, I would expect close to a 1,000 pounds of the 10,300 pound GVW would be on the tow vehicle and the 16" captioned tire above would carry your load with no issues.

The above captioned 16" tire would not require any metal surgery to your trailer to install them and the tires would not be nearly touching each other. Those rims with zero offset have not cause any reported tire clearance issues either vertically or horizontally in the wheel wells.
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Old 01-01-2014, 06:43 PM   #19
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This is the tire supplied by Airstream as an option on the Eddie Bauer models and/or at the factory can be installed onto your trailer. It elevates the trailer just under 0.5" higher than the 15" GYM tire.
Switz,

Not disagreeing with any of your info and the 225 is still in play. Here's something that is sitting kinda funny in my processor.

Previously posted by me:

I was looking at the Airstream website for 2013 specs. IIRC the 16" wheel combo has been frequently reffered to as the Eddie Bauer wheels, correct? The 27' FB EB has 16" LRE's listed in standard features and the same trailer has a 7,800 Lb GVWR.

The above EB trailer has a GVWR 2500 lbs less that my 30'.

Black Aces: The minimum rim width for subject tire is 6.5".

Hi-Spec wheel has 6.5" and 7" in 16" 6X5.5" 4.25" bore 0 Deg offset look at their 6.5's are in Series S5 or 09, 7's in Series 05 or 06.

Have any Forum members had the Sendel 225 combo installed at JC on a 10,000+ GVWR rated trailer? I know many have bought them independently, just curious if JC ever installed them on a 10,000+ GVRW trailer?

Back to work tomorrow. Drat it. Again thanks for your inputs.

Gary
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Old 01-01-2014, 06:48 PM   #20
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Hi Gary,

I'm thinking the extra rubber of a 245 tire would look boss... but, the unsprung weight would worry me.
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Old 01-02-2014, 10:15 AM   #21
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The factory will ship out my 10,000 GVW 2014 Classic model 30 in a few days with four Good Year Marathon tires on 15" wheels. If I had requested the 16" conversion, they would wheel the unit to the Airstream service center 500 feet away and swap out the 15" GYMs for the 16" Michelins (no credit issued for the tires and wheels with 500' of mileage on them). Since the 16" conversion is currently not on the factory option list except for the Eddie Bauer models, that option is done after assembly.

I am sitting in the Jackson Center lounge and heard someone call in to order the 16" tire conversion with five tires and wheels and the quoted price was $1,844.45 plus freight of $65 per tire if shipped separately or around $125 if they can be shipped on a pallet.

I was able to procure these items locally for less money even with the local sales tax and have the opportunity to sell the GYM tires and 15" wheels to recoup some of the costs.

I would be concerned with the wider tire and wheels hitting the fenders or bottoming out in the wheel wells. I wonder if you could acquire a "loaner wheel and tire" to check the fit before committing to five tires and wheels?
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Old 01-02-2014, 02:33 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GCinSC2 View Post

Have any Forum members had the Sendel 225 combo installed at JC on a 10,000+ GVWR rated trailer? I know many have bought them independently, just curious if JC ever installed them on a 10,000+ GVRW trailer?
Gary, JC installed the combo on my 2010 Classic 30 (10k GVWR per the sticker) at Alumapalooza in 2011.

Also, I would not include any "support" from or weight distribution to the tow vehicle from tongue weight in my GVWR calculations. My personal preference is that 10k is 10k. Honestly, I haven't seen a two axle AS with a greater than 10k GVWR (not that they don't exist, just never seen one).

And as is, the 225s provide well over the 10k GVWR capacity. That's what makes this moot for me. The 245s are not providing anything that the 225s don't, or maybe I'm just not comprehending your requirements correctly.

I appreciate this discussion though.

Kyle
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Old 01-02-2014, 04:17 PM   #23
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I think I have read that Can-Am has installed many of the Michelin P235 75 15XL tires on 30 foot Airstreams with no reported problems. You may want to send a message to Andrew T at Can-Am and ask him about his experience with Michelin tires on 30 footers.
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Old 01-02-2014, 06:23 PM   #24
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I think I have read that Can-Am has installed many of the Michelin P235 75 15XL tires on 30 foot Airstreams with no reported problems. You may want to send a message to Andrew T at Can-Am and ask him about his experience with Michelin tires on 30 footers.
Don't know that I've read that myself, but derated, those tires handle 1985#/ea. that gives you 7940 for a tandem axle or 11900 for a tri-axle. If a 30 footer loaded for camping with WD applied fits those ranges, it should be good to go. If that 30 footer is >8000# and only a tandem axle, I wouldn't do it. I do agree reaching out to Andy is a good idea :-)
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Old 01-02-2014, 06:39 PM   #25
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Here is the post I was thinking of by Andrew T.


http://www.airforums.com/forums/f438...-101582-2.html

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We have been using the Michelin P235/75R x 15" XL (extra load) tires on every size Airstream for many years now. Even a fully loaded 30' classic does not overload these tires.

That I know of (and I am sure I would hear about it) none of our customers has ever had a flat with one. They stay in balance, run cool and ride very smooth and have considerably more traction in panic stops.

The advantage over the E range 16" tire is a much smoother ride in the Airstream. We have actually switched the 16" E tires on some Eddie Bauers to a softer riding tire to smooth out the ride. Most tire stores are going to be nervous putting these on trailers because they are told that trailers should have ST tires but ST tires are inferior to passenger or LT tires.

I hope this helps.
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Old 01-02-2014, 07:33 PM   #26
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Switz,

Congrats on getting a new one, hopefully the weather in the Buckeye will cooperate for you getting out of there safely. The idea of a test fit has absolutely crossed my mind.

boondockdad,

Looks never really entered into the concept and frankly hadn't considered unsprung wt as an issue. But you are correct more unsprung wt has to be managed by the shock and suspension.

kry226,

Installed at JC on a 30'. That was a direct answer to one of my questions, thanks. If you can get on a spec sheet for a 2007 30' S/O you'll see the 10,300 GVWR.

The only thing that caught my eye in researching was picking up just over 200 lb extra load cap / tire with the 245's. I think its time to put a spread sheet together I've got more notes than what I made to buy the whole trailer.

Ridgerunner3,

Not doubting what CanAm has done, but that P235 makes no sense by the numbers for me. On day 1 coming home the CAT Scale said the trailer 7700 lbs and that was hooked up and completely empty. So putting 4 P235's at 1985 lb totaling 7,940 lb capacity tires under that 7700 lb scaled weight. No thanks. Just does not compute. A pair of those tires is not even equal to the 5,000 lb axle capacity.

A short personal recap.

I started as a Newbie and this is only our 5th season, so I'm not a newbie and a long long way from an expert. I started with tire issues on our 2nd outing, replaced (in camp, took all day, did all the wheel R&R myself) with GYM's those developed sidewall protruding blister bulges in a few weeks. 2Air went to MAXXIS, I thought can't be worse than what has already happened, bought MAXXIS LRE's and actually so far so good.

But over the last 3 1/2+ years on Airforums (for me anyway) it has been picture after picture of torn up wheel wells, tire treads blown off, near catastrophe after catastrophe. Reports of trips to JC to get panel replacements, many trail blazers taking bold steps to take a proactive step to prevent potential incredible failures while we're trying so hard to have a good time and now the EB with 16's. With my admittedly limited mileage towing the trailer I've agreed with and suggested TPMS and temp guns as a way to stack the deck in our favor and concentrate on enjoying our trips and our Country.

I'm currently running LRE's and a 10K Equal-I-Zer and AFAIK haven't seen one broken rivet, cabinets stay shut, tows darn good too.

This has been and most likely will continue for me as a decision making process. Thanks for all the comments and ideas.

Its gonna be a Michelin season for me, just put 4 on the Dodge, my Beetle needs 4 and the trailer is next.

Gary
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Old 01-02-2014, 07:33 PM   #27
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Ok. The Classic 30' has a "unit base weight" of 7365 and a GVWR of 10000. At 7940 capacity for the 4 Michelin p-rated tires 4(2183/1.1) you'd have about 600# capacity to carry "stuff". The hitch weight is listed at 773 but assume closer to 1000 in real life and assume a third of that is distributed to the axles via WD. That would mean you have about 300# carrying capacity left. You can chew that up with a full black or gray tank or 3/4 FW tank - that doesn't count dishes, clothes, food, etc.

I'm no tire expert and I certainly don't have Andy's credentials - but if I understand the basic math here, I'd say the 15" Michelin p-tires are just at (and probably over) the threshold for a 30' Classic.

That's not said to stir up controversy at all - just my understanding of the math - which could admittedly be flawed so please correct me if I'm missing something.
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Old 01-02-2014, 07:55 PM   #28
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My muddled point in quoting Andrew T was only meant to say that Andrew T has a considerable amount of data about Michelin tires on Airstreams. I am not a customer of his and yet he was very helpful to me when I was trying to figure out what tires to put on my 25 footer and thought he may be helpful to the OP. I did not intend to recommend putting P235 75 15XL tires on a 30 footer.
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