02/12: New Tire Discussion on Woodalls: LT versus ST and more.

[Gene]

Sailors,

After reading all this it is quite normal to be confused. The fog will lift eventually as your brain sorts through all this and you will be able to see things clearly, but you are up against a deadline. So…

I think most of the advice you get here is to switch to 16" wheels and use LT tires. Michelin LTX seem to be most popular, but some people make a strong argument for Michelin Ribs (I'm not one of them).

Beware: I may be seeing the statistics wrong because I favor 16" wheels and Michelin LTX's. And maybe those that switch are wrong, or maybe not.

But you can call Discount Tire or other discount dealer and price these today. I believe Discount has a warehouse in the Phoenix area, so they can get you stuff immediately. Make sure the new wheels are 0˚ offset and are ok for 80 psi. Also, specify metal valves. Aluminum wheels are expensive, but i've seen pictures of some black steel wheels that look pretty nice lately and they should be cheaper. I don't know how they look in person though.

Gene

[eleighj]

The following is a link to a blog entry from Jim and Debbie who have the site Dreamstreamr Odyssey; Travel Trailer and Truck Weights | Dreamstreamr Odyssey. Deals with the process of weighing each wheel and tire individually; very interesting to me.

They do post on this forum quite a bit.

Ed

[slowmover]

Originally Posted by CrawfordGene

Absolutely. Investigating never stops. Answers can be elusive.

I am tired of these discussions, but quite literally a lot is riding on it. I make decisions, think about them, do not worry, move on down the road, read more.

Rednax comforts me because he keeps looking and maybe someday he will convince me to add more air to my tires.

Gene

I'm as tired of them as anyone. Thus grateful for expert opinion.

Answers aren't elusive once the questions have been given a range of possibilities to work within. Definitions matter. What will work has been narrowed significantly if one wishes to reduce tire failure.

Gene, when we get that Japanese truck and the A/S on the scale and adjust your Equal-I-Zer according to numbers then use those same numbers to determine TV tire pressure, solo/laden or laden/towing you'll feel the difference in the TT following the TV as both conditions -- solo and towing -- will be nearer optimal and one running condition will inform the other. (Solo/unladen is the base for all other TV tire pressure numbers. Smith provides the method for determining best TV pressures. One can also read his contibutions on other forums going back more than a decade).

Now . . being able to see it in the mirrors. (If one maintains that lower-than-sidewall is still best on the TT). There's a lag in the TT response to RR axle steering input. Bringing that down to near-zero is the goal, IMO. It -- incipient sway -- is real. Keeping the trailer upright isn't always easy to predict or to control as we all know. So keeping the TT away from those moments is critical. A heat-degraded tire is unacceptable at the moment of truth any more than is a sloppy sidewall. The tire engineers are adamant on TT tire pressure. (Question answered, move on . . . .)

Further, to take the slack out of the rig and remove "extraneous noise" keeps us from mistaking one thing for another. Where is the weak link?

Transient response. One will better be able to isolate the weak points in the responses of the combined vehicle with set parameters. IOW, they'll stand out where now they are somewhat buried. Both vehicles need this individually, and then when the rig is connected. Time versus distance versus steering-wheel-degrees-of-angle-from-dead-ahead. Not for nothing does AndrewT recommend tire/wheel changes for some TVs.

When I've tracked down some of these same issues in tractor-trailers (and corrected them or had them corrected) the change is palpable. One may have greater sensitivity when one drives for a living -- both in hyperalertness at times, and in sheer miles experience on the other -- yet the bulk of the rig and the slightness of the changes would, one would think, make the changes "felt" more imaginary than not. Yet they aren't. Insurance data backs it up, and other drivers (especially O/O's) make good suggestions in these lines of inquiry. One has only to try it (these things) to prove it to ones self.

Establishing a baseline for performance is always numbers driven. Afterwards the tweaks are fun since they arise from a known value set. One can always return, re-set, to zero. Finally, there is a range of possible adjustments which limits speculation once and for all. Our esteemed colleague RobertCross has done such with his WDH adjustments (TV tire pressures as well if he's tried the advice Smith relays to us as it is beyond temp checks and tread wear). Or in FinalCutJoe's thread on reduced Hensley performance . . is it the hitch, is it the hitch receiver, is it the tires, etc?

(And a VPP hitch is the best example of eliminating slack: the TT just flat doesn't move unless the RR axle of the TV tells it to. Winds, trucks, etc, effectively don't matter any more. But the TV can itself be the weak link in accident avoidance. The TT can be more capable of "roadworthiness" than the TV. So it isn't just a matter of keeping the TT upright, but of the TV as well).

This work all done -- a known base line -- emotions are given the containment they need. And the mind (however one want to consider it) has more room to make itself known. Maintaining cool under fire, if you will. On this I will agree that investigating is not ever done: the overall rig responses are to be respected at all times. It's details we'd want to chase. A far more fruitful method than to buy an even larger TV.

There is, for a road vehicle, a best condition. Settings derived from known values. If it varies from that I want to know why. And take action. It's all a tightrope walk otherwise and that sets up an energy drain, a lack of confidence not conducive to rested alertness. Even if alertness yields no more than a bird call noticed at an opportune moment I'd rather not miss it. Rather the point of vacation road travel are the small asides at unexpected times.

There are better things to do while on vacation than to entertain nagging open-ended questions. It is whistling ones way past the graveyard with an eight-ton sixty-five foot combination at 60-mph.


.

[slowmover]

Originally Posted by eleighj

The following is a link to a blog entry from Jim and Debbie who have the site Dreamstreamr Odyssey; Travel Trailer and Truck Weights | Dreamstreamr Odyssey. Deals with the process of weighing each wheel and tire individually; very interesting to me.

They do post on this forum quite a bit.

Ed

Thank you, Ed, excellent link.

.

[HHaase]

Originally Posted by CrawfordGene

Also, specify metal valves. Aluminum wheels are expensive, but i've seen pictures of some black steel wheels that look pretty nice lately and they should be cheaper. I don't know how they look in person though.

Gene

Just a couple of quick thoughts on this part here, and more confusion to add to the mix. Keep in mind I live about 2 miles from the Atlantic Ocean, so that forces me to remember a few issues that folks in Arizona probably won't have to worry about.

You need to be careful about mixing metals. If you get aluminum wheels, and end up anywhere that's near salt water or that salts their roads, make sure to use anti-sieze on everything. Particularly lug nuts and metal valve stems, and between the inner face of the rim and outer face of the brake drum. Personally, I prefer rubber body valve stems. They are more forgiving to impact damage, and I just get them replaced any time I get tires. That, and the above mentioned corrosion / seizing issue.

Speaking of impact damage. If you suffer from a lot of potholes or curb rash, there's a big difference between steel and aluminum. In a pinch you can hammer a dented steel rim back into shape to keep you moving. They can also be professionally repaired for a more permanent fix. But aluminum will usually crack instead of bend, and almost always need to be replaced if they get damaged. That, and you can always paint or powdercoat steel rims if color is an issue.

-Hans

[slowmover]

Yeah, Hans, I don't want an aluminum garden shed. Or just travel 100-miles away. So concerns like you've mentioned just add to the mix. Thus: Does the wheel start to pit at the point of contact?

[HHaase]

Originally Posted by REDNAX

Yeah, Hans, I don't want an aluminum garden shed. Or just travel 100-miles away. So concerns like you've mentioned just add to the mix. Thus: Does the wheel start to pit at the point of contact?

Usually it's more that aluminum and steel will actually seize together, think of it almost like a chemical welding process as a simple explanation. A wet and salty atmosphere simply accellerates it dramatically. I've had to hit a tire with a sledgehammer on a few occasions to get a wheel to separate from a brake rotor when working on friends cars. I'm not really trying to talk anybody out of aluminum wheels, more trying to help communicate the common pitfalls if they aren't installed properly. People get the assumption that Aluminum is a wonder-metal because it doesn't rust, but under the right conditions it will still suffer corrosion and oxidation related issues.

These are all issues that can be dealt with very easily with generous application of an anti-sieze paste at the time of assembly. If you do your own servicing of brakes and such, make sure to always use anti-sieze on the face between the wheel and brake drum, plus on the studs before you put on the lug nuts. Good tires shops do this any time they pull a wheel off. Up here on Long Island, it's essential to use the stuff on every threaded fastener when working on cars/trucks/trailers, and I have a tube of it in every toolbox I own.

And whatever you do, NEVER use those damned anodized aluminum lug nuts on anything if you ever want to actually remove a wheel. Not that I expect to ever see an Airstream with the things, but still needed to be said.

-Hans

[ROBERTSUNRUS]

Hi, let's talk about wheels I'm burned out with all the tire science.

My tires are round, black, and hold air. Nuff said!!!!!!

[HHaase]

Originally Posted by ROBERTSUNRUS

Hi, let's talk about wheels I'm burned out with all the tire science.

My tires are round, black, and hold air. Nuff said!!!!!!

Wow, your tires are just like mine!
They're round, and were once made of rubber.
Ohhhh....Fuuuuuuudgeeeeeeee......

Now, the wheels.....
I'm thinking of 16" steel rims, powder coated in airstream blue, with chrome moon eye hubcaps on them. Think that will work well (and by that, I mean look good) on a '65 classic?

-Hans

[xrvr]

AS blue with baby moons? YES!!! jim

[jdalrymple]

Wow. I did not know pulling a travel trailer could be so dangerous. Maybe if I sell everything and just by a very small tent and backpack stove I can still go camping and not be in peril. If I just don't overload my vehicle.

Come on guys, you are scaring the noobies.

JD

[richinny]

Originally Posted by CrawfordGene

Rednax comforts me because he keeps looking and maybe someday he will convince me to add more air to my tires.
Gene

gene, fyi on my '94 34' the factory recommended 50 psi. on my '11 34' they recommend 65 (max on sidewall)

[eleighj]

Originally Posted by jdalrymple

Wow. I did not know pulling a travel trailer could be so dangerous. Maybe if I sell everything and just by a very small tent and backpack stove I can still go camping and not be in peril. If I just don't overload my vehicle.

Come on guys, you are scaring the noobies.

JD

Jeff:

The nice thing about the trailer; if nature calls in the middle the night; you don't have to get out the tent and deal with "nocturnal animals" of the night.

Ed

[slowmover]

The noobs can just go back to Smith's link to a conversion chart. The reasons why are for those who've an interest otherwise.

[Gene]

Originally Posted by eleighj

Jeff:

The nice thing about the trailer; if nature calls in the middle the night; you don't have to get out the tent and deal with "nocturnal animals" of the night.

Ed

Depends on your personal hygiene standards.

But back to tires….

Rednax,

The question that never has been answered and I ask it every couple of months on one tire thread or another: why do auto and truck manufacturers always recommend less pressure in the OEM tires than is stated as maximum on the sidewall? Or, another way, why wouldn't they recommend maximum sidewall pressure if it is safer?

I am assuming (because I didn't read the linked thread) that recommending maximum psi stiffens the sidewalls and that is why we should run a maximum. Is that correct?

I don't know if I ever looked at your older Silverstreak so I clicked on the link. It was beautiful! It must have been very hard to part with it. Did you get all the work done around the house when you removed the SS temptation?

Gene

[DKB_SATX]

Originally Posted by jdalrymple

Wow. I did not know pulling a travel trailer could be so dangerous. Maybe if I sell everything and just by a very small tent and backpack stove I can still go camping and not be in peril. If I just don't overload my vehicle.

Come on guys, you are scaring the noobies.

JD

Hey, those backpacking stoves can explode, start fires, you can scald yourself with your coffee.... it never ends!

[jdalrymple]

Originally Posted by DKB_SATX

Hey, those backpacking stoves can explode, start fires, you can scald yourself with your coffee.... it never ends!

Oh man. Where is Ralph Nader when we need him? First the Pinto, now just look.

[Gene]

We'll never see Nader out in the wilderness. He couldn't get to the trailhead—he doesn't drive.

I don't know how we survived tent camping years ago with the bears, coyotes, mountain lions, skunks, snakes and other wildlife. I'm going to go hide under the bed—wait, I can't do that, the dust will trigger my allergies. We're all doomed! Might as well tow the Safari somewhere as the end is near anyway. I am getting solid rubber tires.

Gene

[Steamy1]

This may be the solution to all of the tire issues!

[jdalrymple]

Not so fast.

What is the:

Weight Capacity?

Speed Rating?

Acceptable Side Slip Angle?


Too many unanswered questions here.





Just making a point. I'll quit.