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02-07-2004, 03:58 PM
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#61
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Retired Moderator
1992 29' Excella
madison
, Wisconsin
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,644
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balance master
john
thanxs for the photo! it confirmed what i thought!
a few years ago i was helping a friend build a stroked out sportster. it vibrated horribly but was very fast!
in order to try to make this particular harley more rideable we tried a similar product attached to the clutch basket. although a bit smaller in diameter.
it smoothed out much but not all of the vibration on the bike, you could at least see out of the mirrors after installation. as i recall it used mercury instead of ballbearings.
balance masters was the name of the company that made the unit we used. oddly enough, they also offered a service to machine grooves in your flywheels and install the same system inside the motor itself!
john
__________________
you call them ferrets, i call them weasels.
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02-07-2004, 10:03 PM
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#62
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Rivet Master
2019 25' Flying Cloud
Airstream - Other
Airstream - Other
North Central Texas
, USA
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,003
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A friend of ours owns a trucking outfit and uses those on some of his older (500K+mi) tractors, steering axle only. They work good but not much below 45 mph. They are on 22.5" tires, not sure if that is why they don't work below that.
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02-11-2004, 07:47 PM
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#63
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1 Rivet Member
1976 28' Argosy 28
Dripping Springs
, Texas
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 14
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Centramatic Balancers
Y'all have made my day. My '76 Argosy is going to Alaska next spring and I have searched in vain for someone near Austin, Texas to balance my 'running gear'. I was preparing to go to my local gas station and get them to balance the tires and, while still up on the jacks, give'em Andy's hankerchief check. The tires are balanced if they stay where you put them and a hankerchief gently placed just off TDC causes the tire to rotate. When that failed I was going to ask them to remount the tire until I got the best result with the test. No telling if that would be enough. I was hoping I could get them to do all four tires before I used my entire stock of good will!! Trying the Centramatics is better.
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02-12-2004, 09:15 AM
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#64
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Patriotic
1973 23' Safari
North of Boston
, Massachusetts
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 4,546
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could somebody explain to me what is different about the trailer's wheel assembly, as compared to say, my truck's rear axle/wheel assemblies, that requires this special kind of balancing?
why is it "ok" to balance an automobile's tire/wheel only, while the airstream's wheels need to be balanced on the axle?
It would be nice if we could come up w/ some sort of list of shops around the country that have this capability. We all know of 1 place One other poster mentioned that they were able to find someone that could do it, but they didn't say where. Anyone in NewEngland that can do this?
Seems that most A/S dealers say "nah, you don't need to"...but it does say in plain english in my '73 owner's manual that Andy's way is the correct way.
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02-12-2004, 09:30 AM
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#65
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Rivet Master
, Minnesota
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 7,721
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Balance
Chuck,
I think it has a lot to do with marketing.
1. Since most people don't ride in their trailers, they won't notice if it is balanced or not.
2. The people that built your truck have a quality control system, a warranty system, and deeper pockets for lawyers to dig into if something goes dreadfully wrong.
3. Face it-most trailers are hauling around old stumps, firewood, snowmobiles, boats, bobcats and the like. They (utility trailers) usually don't see more than ten thousand miles in their lifetime. This is the market that the wheel and hub manufacturers are in. And that market just wants something cheap.
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02-12-2004, 09:43 AM
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#66
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Patriotic
1973 23' Safari
North of Boston
, Massachusetts
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 4,546
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So am I right that the assemblies aren't any different? that would mean that trailers just have crappy parts?
I don't know if I can buy the idea that they "just don't care"...balancing isn't just about a comfortable ride. seems to me that it would be a safety issue, as well as a long-term quality issue.
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02-12-2004, 10:34 AM
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#67
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Rivet Master
, Minnesota
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 7,721
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balance
Chuck,
It's deplorable. Don't know how big a safety issue it is. Certainly the wheels and hubs are safe when used for the intended purpose. Is this why most states prohibit people riding in trailers?
If I manufactured hubs, I probably wouldn't balance them either. If I did, it could imply suitability for some use above and beyond their intended application, and that carries added legal liability.
I don't think the manufacturers care one whit about longevity of the product.
On the other hand, I recently purchased a pair of hubs and they were pretty well balanced right out of the box. Not perfect, but pretty good for the price.
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02-12-2004, 12:32 PM
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#68
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4 Rivet Member
1954 22' Flying Cloud
1954 25' Cruiser
2005 25' International CCD
Paradise
, Texas
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 407
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Does anyone in the Dallas/Fort Worth area know where to have the running gear balanced?
__________________
Paul Mayeux
A&P Vintage Trailer Works, Inc.
AirForums #1565
WBCCI #7162
Heart of Texas Camping Unit
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02-12-2004, 01:08 PM
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#69
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Just a member
1978 28' Argosy 28
Lutz
, Florida
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 4,549
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There is one issue that was touched on by markdoane. Parts is parts. The hub assemblies are designed to haul a bunch of weight around and do it for a reasonable price. If you look at most campground in your area, how many 1970's trailer are there in that campground. Ok, How many of them that are there were towed in in the last 90 days?
Most of the White box trailers need to be able to survive the warranty period. Once that happens the manufacturer has no liability and when the trailer falls apart due to the running gear not being balanced the owners scrap it, or trade it and buy a new one. Sometimes they buy a new one so they can get out before it falls apart.
Airstream's are different as we all know. They will last almost forever. But the industry as a whole is not willing to pressure the manufacturers to build to a tighter tolerance. It can screw up their selling patterns. Until that pressure is applied or someone decides to fill a void in the market we have to continue to search. I know the hub is forged steel, I wonder what it would cost to forge it over sized and turn or CNC cut the entire assembly, not just the bearing races and inner drum? In doing that type of machining you could build in balance ability?
Of course in doing this you would be driving the cost per drum up. Would you pay 2 or 3 times the dexter price for 100% perfectly balanced drums?
This may also be the reason that Airstream originally went to the disc brakes. Automotive style disc brakes will have a very low % of imbalance due to the shape and size of the disc itself.
__________________
Brett G
WBCCI #5501 AIR # 49
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1978 Argosy 28 foot Motorhome
Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something. -- Plato
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02-12-2004, 11:42 PM
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#70
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4slice
1977 31' Sovereign
Chase
, British Columbia
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 68
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Hi all...
This thread is topical as I've been pondering the balance situation. My unit has disc brakes, as Brett mentioned in the last post, and I'm wondering if they need to be balanced with the wheel/tire ass'y as do the drums.
If the discs are not as prone to large imbalances, would the Centramatics be sufficient to do the job, along with standard wheel/tire balance?
I appreciate everyone's advice.
Gary
4slice
'77 31'
Prince George, BC
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02-13-2004, 10:25 AM
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#71
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Rivet Master
2005 28' International CCD
Pagosa Springs
, Colorado
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 811
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balance
I've decided to get the cetramatics for my tandem '67. For $199 for a set of four it's worth giving it a shot.
__________________
"would you rather have a mansion full of money or a trailer full of love?"
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02-17-2004, 02:52 PM
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#72
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Rivet Master
Airstream Dealer
Corona
, California
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 16,497
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Thenewkid64.
Airstream went to the "disc brake system" because of it's superiorority over electric brakes.
They quit it because of the costs involved.
Andy
(Been gone for a week)
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02-18-2004, 02:45 PM
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#73
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Contributing Member
2018 Interstate Grand Tour Ext
Austin (Hays County)
, Texas
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,164
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Centramatics
I had them installed this morning and here is what they look like on the trailer.
I don't know how to tell whether they are doing the job, but I guess that if the knobs on my Fantastic Fans stop unscrewing themselves, I probably have less vibration.
__________________
John W. Irwin
2018 Interstate GT, "Sabre-Dog V"
WBCCI #9632
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02-21-2004, 02:15 PM
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#74
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Rivet Master
2004 30' Classic
Field and Stream
, PA & MT
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 819
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I THINK I have found a place that will balance my wheel and tire and hub and drum, however, after reading everything posted here, I'm still not sure I understand this subject in its entirety.
The guy at this place told me he balances them without removing the tires and rim from the axle, and I won't be able to rotate my tires without rebalancing them or they won't still be balanced. It will cost about $65 for him to do this on my new 30' Classic.
Does this sound like the process you guys are referring to when you say balancing the entire running gear?
I can get my tires balanced at Costco for free, or for a very nominal cost. So, on a new Airstream, do you think it is better to pay $65 for "the works", or just do the tire balancing for free?
Also, if you get the entire running gear balanced, how long do you go between tire rotations (and rebalancing) ?
John
__________________
Flyfisher
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02-21-2004, 02:27 PM
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#75
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Rivet Master
, Minnesota
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 7,721
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Balancing
John,
This sounds like the old method using a motor to spin the wheel and a strobe light to detect balance. This used to be the best method for balancing. I think it still is. You're a lucky man.
Regarding rotation: I personally don't know why you would rotate tires on a un-powered, non-steer axle. Maybe someone else has a good reason.
Here's another idea: Have them balanced for free at Costco, then take them to your buddy and have him check them with the strobe. If the Costco balance is OK, then you can figure that the hubs are pretty well balanced.
Just make sure you change the air (or Nitrogen) in them once a season.
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02-21-2004, 02:34 PM
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#76
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Rivet Master
2004 30' Classic
Field and Stream
, PA & MT
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 819
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Thanks for the feedback, Mark.
I do keep a close check on my tire pressure, but haven't been changing the air in them (intentionally).
John
__________________
Flyfisher
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02-21-2004, 02:42 PM
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#77
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Rivet Master
, Minnesota
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 7,721
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Tire Inflation
Oh, John, I ALWAYS change the air in my tires, especially before I take them in for service. I add a few drops of air freshener. Why make the poor guy changing your tires suffer.
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02-21-2004, 05:38 PM
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#78
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Rivet Master
1967 26' Overlander
Huntsville
, Alabama
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 3,018
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Re: Balancing
Quote:
Originally posted by markdoane
Regarding rotation: I personally don't know why you would rotate tires on a un-powered, non-steer axle. Maybe someone else has a good reason.
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Thanks markdoane, once again your insight impresses me. This is an excellent point. Sure, I could rotate my tires to balance wear on the spare, but I do not think I will ever wear out a set of Airstream tires - they will be replaced due to age, not wear.
Am I too missing something?
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03-07-2004, 04:00 PM
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#79
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Contributing Member
2018 Interstate Grand Tour Ext
Austin (Hays County)
, Texas
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,164
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Centramatics
I put on 300+ interstate miles last week at 65 mph with the Centramatics installed. Judging from the things we accidentally left on the counters and were still right in place when we stopped, I think that the Centramatics have definitely reduced vibration.
__________________
John W. Irwin
2018 Interstate GT, "Sabre-Dog V"
WBCCI #9632
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06-10-2004, 02:57 PM
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#80
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Rivet Master
2004 30' Classic
Field and Stream
, PA & MT
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 819
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Trued the Tires and Balanced the Running Gear
I took my new 30' Classic today to have my running gear balanced. The place I went to does balancing and frame work, mostly for over-the-road trucks. It's a fair sized place with 5 separate bays, and is run by a guy who's said he's been in business locally for about 40 years.
He told me I could be there the first thing this morning at 7:00am and said it would take about 1 1/2 hours and would cost about $65 for my dual axle, 4 wheel trailer. So, I decided to wait without unhitching while he did the job.
The owner's son asked me how far I'd driven getting there, which was about 10-12 miles and he said that was far enough. Then, the first thing they did was to use some type of machine to check how round my tires were. They showed me that they weren't very round at all, and asked me if I wanted to have my tires "trued".
Of course I had no idea what that meant, and they said they actually shaved off some of the high spots on the tires so they'd run smoother. They said you could balance the running gear, but if you didin't also true the tires it would be like having an egg balanced and then driving on it - unless you make the egg round, you're only doing part of the job. It seemed to make sense, so I said "Sure, let's do it."
Four hours and 15 minutes later, sometimes with 2-3 guys working on it (and with me wondering WHAT KIND OF KING SIZED BILL I'D BE PAYING) the owner said they were finally finished.
They apologized for taking so long, but said that one tire in particular was a bugger to get balanced. They were going to add weights on the inside only, but said that tire took 12 oz of weight to get right, so they also had to put some of the weight on the outside, but it'is where you can't see it.
In total, my 4 tires took 19 oz of weight to get totally balanced (they said about 3 oz per tire that size is average for them - so I guess my other 3 were about average).
They said the balancing shoud be good for the tires' life, and to be sure not to change the exact tire position in case a tire is taken off for any reason, like having a state inspection done, etc.
My whole job cost $165.00 - $80 for truing the tires, $80 for the balancing, and $5 for the weights (I should have given then some of my fishing sinkers - maybe I could have cut the cost somewhat!). I any case, considering all the guys who worked on it, and for over 4 hours, that seems cheap by any measure these days.
More importantly, I'm really glad I had it done -- now, if only I can get all of the many other problems with my BRAND NEW trailer fixed, maybe I'll be able to sleep better at night!
John
__________________
Flyfisher
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