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07-18-2004, 04:44 PM
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#101
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Moderator dude
1966 26' Overlander
Phoenix
, Arizona
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 7,497
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Andy
It is interesting that you have so much energy on this issue. I just wanted to point out that you are wrong in making the statement that it is illegal to use surge brakes on travel trailers. And if surge brakes "are foolish to say the least" why are they even acceptable on ANY trailer? And in answer to your question ..... I have taken my 7500 # boat/trailer combo on several trips greater than 500 miles. In and out of this country and over passes above 5000 feet. A trip to Lake Powell takes me from Phoenix (2000 feet) to Flagstaff. (7000 feet)The brakes operate as well as my Overlander. (5000 #s +/-)
I don't have to argue. It's my experience. Which I would guess that you do not have an experience with surge brakes. And I don't want mistruths put out to the rest of the forum.
Your quote:
"In fact, it's is illegal to use a "surge" type brake system on a travel trailer. A few tent campers did have them."
This simply is not fact! -- Guessing here, and not in any state in this country!!!!!!!
And safety is paramount. Properly maintained surge brakes are just as SAFE as properly maintained electric brakes. This is not theroy is is fact! Played out on the highways and roadways day in and day out.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Action
__________________
1966 Mercury Park Lane 4 DR Breezeway 410 4V, C-6, 2.80 - Streamless.
1966 Lincoln 4 door Convertible 462 4V 1971 Ford LTD Convertible 429 4V Phoenix ~ Yeah it's hot however it's a dry heat!
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07-20-2004, 10:17 AM
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#102
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gunnyusmc
2006 25' Safari FB SE
Livingston
, Texas
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 436
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Freight Damage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunnyusmc
A word of caution!! I got my axles thru Inland RV and upgraded the wieght rating of the axles. Henschen shipped them to me by Yellow Frieght and Henschen does not put them on pallets! They arrived looking fine, but after the install, I found that both right brake drums were cracked and the bearings were damaged. Long story short, I had to pay $500.00 for the repairs. CHECK the axles before signing for them too include pulling the drums.
If you want the long story of pass the buck call me at 512-497-5120.
Don Primrose
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Yellow Transportation paid $165.00 of the $493.00 damage too my new Axles on 9Jul2004.
In there letter they stated that they believed that Henschen or I damaged the axles but paid a token amount anyway!
Case closed
Don Primrose
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07-29-2004, 07:52 PM
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#103
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Rivet Master
1973 31' Sovereign
Portland
, Oregon
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 1,255
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How much scratching is "normal"
How much purely cosmetic damage is thought to be common for an axle shippment (things like paint scratches for example). Should I consider it "normal" to have to touch up the paint when I get a new set of axles?
Thanks,
Malcolm
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07-29-2004, 08:07 PM
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#104
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Rivet Master
, Minnesota
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 7,721
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Malcolm,
Check the 'paint' before you touch it up. It might be no more than a thin coating of black cosmolene. I removed all the 'paint' on mine with a rag and mineral spirits, then repainted with POR-15.
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07-29-2004, 09:28 PM
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#105
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Rivet Master
1973 31' Sovereign
Portland
, Oregon
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 1,255
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Black Cosmolene?
Don,
Never heard of cosmolene (black or otherwise). How do I tell if what is on there is cosmolene or paint? Is it just a question of how easily it comes off? I can tell that in some places the metal was also scratched.
Malcolm
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07-30-2004, 05:49 AM
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#106
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Rivet Master
2019 25' Flying Cloud
Airstream - Other
Airstream - Other
North Central Texas
, USA
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,003
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tcwilliams
Hate to sound ignorant, but it has not stopped me from asking questions yet
What is an easy lube bearing? My boat trailer has bearing buddies, but I doubt it is the same thing.
Thanks,
Tom
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Bearing Buddies is a Reg. TM &/or patented type of means to easily grease trailer wheel bearings. I've had a couple of trailers with the Dexter axles that had their version of ez-lube bearings. The Dexter E-Z lube design is also supposed to force the grease into the rear bearing (as well as the front) better than others. PLEASE don't jump on this...I'm only relating what I read and this is from memory...be kind!!!
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07-30-2004, 06:05 AM
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#107
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Rivet Master
, Minnesota
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 7,721
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Quote:
Originally Posted by malconium
Don,
Never heard of cosmolene (black or otherwise). How do I tell if what is on there is cosmolene or paint? Is it just a question of how easily it comes off? I can tell that in some places the metal was also scratched.
Malcolm
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Thats pretty much all you can do. Rub it with some mineral spirits and make a judgement whether you want to invest the time and effort to repaint it. In my case, it was easy because I already had the paint and free time.
Cosmolene is nasty stuff. It's sticky and waxy at the same time. It's a coating that was used on trucks and military equipment being shipped overseas. The axle paint is not cosmolene, but probably a cheap lacquer.
Calling it cosmolene was a cheap shot. I really think the axle companies use something easy to remove, then the customer choose their own finish, or just let it wear off.
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07-30-2004, 09:42 AM
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#108
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Rivet Master
Airstream Dealer
Corona
, California
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 16,497
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To All That May Be Concerned.
Henschen is under many guidelines of what they can and cannot do with paint, in spite of the fact that they are in Jackson Center.
They "CANNOT" use the kind of paints that you can go to Home Depot and buy. We can thank our state and federal regulators for that.
"ALL" bare axles are immersed in a "WATER BASED, BLACK ENAMEL PRIMER."
After the paint dries, brakes, hubs and drums are added.
It is impossible to ship axles and expect them to be scratch free and without sometimes a dinged in grease cap.
However, wooden crates could be built, to totally encase an axle, which would gaurantee nothing more than adding to the cost.
I wonder, how many Airstream owners that may purchase an axle, look under their brand new tow vehicles, for small dings and dents, or scratched paint? Gosh, you would think by now, auto manufacturers would have perfected a way to avoid that.
The simple fact of the matter, at least in todays society, caring for someones property other than their own, is no longer the rule but the exception. In fact many people don't care about their own property.
Find a freight line, any freight line, that will absolutely guarantee scratch free delivery of something as heavy as an axle, and I am sure Henschen would use them immediately. Won't happen.
Any irregularities on any axle shipment should be reported to us immediately, not several days later.
Asking others of "what should I do" only compounds the matter.
Unfortunately, the vast majority of Airstream owners have never dealt with a motor freight carrier. If they did, perhaps they would better understand the system, which we agree, has much room for improvement, but, it just is not going to happen, today, tomorrow, or any other time in the future.
Therefore, we must learn to work with the system, the best we can, and solve the problems as they occur.
Raising devil about it, won't solve a thing.
Perhaps most people don't understand what "happens" when something is shipped motor freight.
We receive many cardboard boxes from Airstream every month. Usually, they arrive perfectly. But, unfortunately, some arrive they they went through a demolition derby. Then the claims process begins. We don't like it either, but we, as well as the rest of us, must work with an imperfect system.
Andy
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07-30-2004, 09:54 AM
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#109
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Rivet Master
, Minnesota
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 7,721
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inland RV Center, In
"ALL" bare axles are immersed in a "BLACK WATER BASED ENAMEL PRIMER."
Andy
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Clarification, please. Is that 'blackwater' based enamel; or black, water based enamel? LOL
Thanks for the info.
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07-30-2004, 09:59 AM
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#110
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Rivet Master
Airstream Dealer
Corona
, California
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 16,497
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Don.
It's Monday, what do you expect?
Thanks for pointing that out. I fixed it.
I should post a photo of how the axles are dipped.
Actually, you can see the dipping process in the "tour" section of our web site.
Andy
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07-30-2004, 10:38 AM
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#111
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Contributing Member
2018 Interstate Grand Tour Ext
Austin (Hays County)
, Texas
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,164
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Surge brake safety
Quote:
And safety is paramount. Properly maintained surge brakes are just as SAFE as properly maintained electric brakes. This is not theroy is is fact! Played out on the highways and roadways day in and day out.
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Airstreams mported to germany must be modified to surge brakes by law. There are a number of posts on this forum showing that. The Germans think electric brakes are unsafe!
There are probably fewer possibilities of failure in surge brakes than in electric brakes.
__________________
John W. Irwin
2018 Interstate GT, "Sabre-Dog V"
WBCCI #9632
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07-30-2004, 10:50 AM
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#112
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Rivet Master
Airstream Dealer
Corona
, California
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 16,497
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John.
Surge brakes may be as safe or safer than electric brakes. That is not the question.
The question is, "when a sway condition exists, how can you apply the brakes, when the trailer is equipped with surge brakes?"
The answer, of course is that you "cannot."
Therefore, electric brakes are safer to use, not perhaps because they are better, but because we "can" apply them to stop a sway.
The disc brake system that Airstream had years ago, could also be activated, to eliminate a sway.
Therefore the bottom line, considering everything, the electrics give us more options than surge brakes. Try backing a heavy weight uphill, when you have surge brakes. You can, but you first must install a pin, to stop the surge brakes from working.
Heaven forbid, that you forget to take the pin out, and get back on the highway.
We are presently working on a retro disc brake kit.
We feel, "it's time."
Andy
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07-30-2004, 11:24 AM
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#113
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Rivet Master
, Minnesota
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 7,721
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Andy,
Great idea for retro disc brakes. Will they be actuated by a servo motor? Would hate to go back to the blended system, like an electrically actuated, vacuum booster over hydraulic type hybrid.
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07-30-2004, 11:37 AM
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#114
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Moderator dude
1966 26' Overlander
Phoenix
, Arizona
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 7,497
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Applying trailer surge brakes ... take your foot off the gas. Or tap the barke pedal.
The towing vehicle will slow down applying the brakes on the trailer. This will stop sway. The amount of speed reduction in the towing vehicle only needs to be ever so slight to activate the trailer brakes. The tongue travel to apply brakes is about 1" to 2 ''. And 2" travel for the tongue the brakes would likely lock up in the trailer. That much braking is not needed.
The set up can be disc or drum.
From experience on my boat and dual axle trailer (with drum brakes on all 4 wheels) which weighs 7500 pounds, I have not had an issue in reverse. The location that I park my trailer I have to push it over a curb in reverse. Both axles will go over the curb to the final location. This is not done at high speed so I do not experience any issues doing this.
I also want to note that I am not a champion of any braking system, and suggest it is more personal prefference of the user. I would also suggest that electric, surge(hydrallic) or air brakes when properly set up are safe.
>>>>>>>>>>>Action
__________________
1966 Mercury Park Lane 4 DR Breezeway 410 4V, C-6, 2.80 - Streamless.
1966 Lincoln 4 door Convertible 462 4V 1971 Ford LTD Convertible 429 4V Phoenix ~ Yeah it's hot however it's a dry heat!
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07-30-2004, 11:48 AM
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#115
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Rivet Master
Airstream Dealer
Corona
, California
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 16,497
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Action.
Your post of what you do with "SURGE BRAKES" could be misleading to some others who may not know.
Your post is "EXACTLY INCORRECT" when you use electric brakes.
The correct instructions for stopping a sway with electric or disc brakes are:
SLAM ON THE CONTROLLER AND PUNCH THE GAS PEDAL.
Why do you continue to post what boat people do?
This site is for Airstreams, NOT BOATS.
Airstreams don't use surge brakes and never have. Quit adding confusion to those that may accidentally follow your advice.
Andy
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07-30-2004, 11:54 AM
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#116
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Moderator dude
1966 26' Overlander
Phoenix
, Arizona
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 7,497
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Please read the post - it is about surge brakes. Not electric brakes.
Slamming anything and punching anything is pretty violent. I recommed against anything violent!
>>>>>>>>Action
__________________
1966 Mercury Park Lane 4 DR Breezeway 410 4V, C-6, 2.80 - Streamless.
1966 Lincoln 4 door Convertible 462 4V 1971 Ford LTD Convertible 429 4V Phoenix ~ Yeah it's hot however it's a dry heat!
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07-30-2004, 03:37 PM
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#117
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4 Rivet Member
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 366
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Whoa, Time Out!
This is my thread and I make the rules.
Be Courteous, both of you , or:
I will call down a Gypsy Curse and ;
your cat will die,
your violin string will snap and leave you disfigured for life,
your wine skins will burst,
your donkey will get a hernia and never pull your rickety cart again
and your wife will desert you
and your daughter will marry a Hungarian.
And if Canavera deletes this post, I will go out to California and spit on his Airstream.
By the way, I dont like surge brakes, AND I do not like electric brakes, but I do like air brakes for the heavy stuff, like my trailer.
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07-30-2004, 10:51 PM
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#118
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3 Rivet Member
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 229
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WHEW!!!! Must be a Full Moon!
Yep, sure enough, bold as daylight! Let's see, this thread started out as "axles" went to the "paint issues"(chemical makeup) and then to "brakes and the controllers"! This HAS to be a new forum first. Three threads in ONE!!! Let's just take a deep breath and "regroup".
Now for alittle humor Navigator, you're up
1. I don't have a cat
2. I don't play the violin
3. My wine comes from a bottle
4. Though my name is Oscar, I am NOT from south of the border (German and Scot heritage), no offence
5. If my wife leaves it'll be the fact the wine skin DIDN'T HOLD the wine
6. And last but not least, I don't have kids!!!!
Now for brake controllers, check the the next active thread.
Oscar
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07-31-2004, 08:14 AM
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#119
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Rivet Master
, Minnesota
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 7,721
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Navigator
By the way, I dont like surge brakes, AND I do not like electric brakes, but I do like air brakes for the heavy stuff, like my trailer.
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I'm trying to figure out how to install air brakes on my '59 Tradewind. Does anyone have the dimensions? I'm trying to take dimensions off this photo. Figure I can mount it just forward of the AC shroud.
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07-31-2004, 10:28 AM
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#120
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Rivet Master
Airstream Dealer
Corona
, California
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 16,497
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Markdoane.
No no. Don't mount it by the AC. That will alter the aerodynamics to the extent of causing abnormal tire wear and further causing the need to install leading edge slats, so that you reduce the tongue weight below 4000 pounds, and increase the bumper weight to at least 2500 pounds.
Might be better to install it next to the water tank, as your system will generate enough heat from the excessive friction, that you will need water cooling.
On the other hand, if the maximum air pressure is kept below 2500 psi, you could use a radiator to dissipate the heat, as long as it has at least a 32 square foot surface. You could mount that on the passenger side of the trailer, so that you wouldn't obstruct any on coming traffic. Also don't forget to add clearance lights to the radiator, so that it can be clearly seen in the daylight.
Oh yes, please have one of your axles retract, as soon as you reach V2. Saves wear and tear on the vertical and horizontal stabilizers, and helps the "On-star" reception.
Andy
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