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Old 01-26-2015, 07:28 AM   #41
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How to gain more clearance

For me there was no down side.

What If a person wants to leave their trailer stock height?

I think that is great!

What if a person wants to raise their trailer up?

I think that is great too!

Is it possible that raising a trailer three inches might adversely affect trailer handling? While it is not my experience at all, I suppose lots of things are possible.

I have posted on lots of forums, I have never posted on a forum with so many people who want to make any statement that disagrees with their personal opinion controversial.

If I and others think that our stock trailers are too low, why do you disparage the action of raising them up when you have never even pulled my trailer that you call ill handling?

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Old 01-26-2015, 07:34 AM   #42
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Except that your trailer is now somewhat less able to keep itself upright.

And if you really read what I wrote you'd have seen I agreed with your solution to a saggy frame.

Which is still not the same as saying it is a free lunch. It was a trade. And the only thing one can say in reducing road ability is "so far, so good".
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Old 01-26-2015, 07:41 AM   #43
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How to gain more clearance

Lol.

Ok then prove to me that my trailer is less able to keep itself upright.

If we are to play the game of unfounded contentions, I will contend my raised trailer has a lower center of gravity than your stock Silver Streak.


I will also contend that my trailer is safer than yours because your trailer is too long to be safe for use as a bumper mount tow.


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Old 01-26-2015, 08:27 AM   #44
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Sad to see that this thread has taken a predicted direction. Once again real world experience is debunked by the kitchen table engineers. I have spoken to a local heavy truck and trailer garage about the job. They have done many SOB lifts and recently a couple of new Airstreams. Quoted 3 hours of time max for my duel axle.
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Old 01-26-2015, 08:49 AM   #45
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Is a lifted truck a more stable tow vehicle? Are race cars better when lifted? If so, why?

The dynamics are of the same ilk.

There is a limit on tire adhesion. This is central.

Higher COG or lowered tire pressure mean next to the same problem for a trailer. The TT tires lose their grip sooner.

One may make a change, but it has other effects. Is that difficult?

The trade off has to be worthwhile. On that I haven't said otherwise. Quite the contrary.

As to my trailer I'd agree. And have, numerous times in the past. Just as I have also made the point that the least stable tow vehicle is a pickup.

Whenever there are weak links it is important to note them, and why. Start stacking them up together and there will be problems sooner than later. More so when the weak link is weakened further.

If you boys can't pick up a book on vehicle dynamics or read some SAE papers, it's no fault of mine.
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Old 01-26-2015, 08:53 AM   #46
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How to gain more clearance

Offer proof to counter my testimony that raising my trailer 3" has not made my trailer even slightly more unstable.

Are you simply going to offer opinion and a note to read a book on vehicle dynamics to negate my testimony?

Kind of weak Slow.

Can you even prove that the center of gravity of my raised trailer is higher than your stock height trailer?

Can you say with certainty that raising my trailer 3" raises the center of gravity more than adding a second rooftop air conditioner?

Are you also ardently opposed to rooftop air conditioners because of their detrimental effect on center of gravity?


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Old 01-26-2015, 09:12 AM   #47
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You can run around it all you want. The models exist. Is your rig granted exemption?

I really don't think you've understood what I've written. You appear to think I'm picking an argument with you, that it's a matter of right versus wrong. I'm not the one stuck in black versus white for you've not seen me specifically write that.

Would you say that GVWR is hard and fast? I've seen your posts that would counter that, that there is room on the edges. I've said the same even if worded differently. But I've also said that heavily loading a TV means far more caution as to hitch set, travel speed and braking distance.

This is no different.

Choose a pickup and one has a less safe vehicle solo or towing. Etcetera, and right on down the line for these types of choices. None are free of consequence. Models and statistics bear them out.
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Old 01-26-2015, 09:18 AM   #48
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So then you are certain that the center of gravity of your trailer is lower than my trailer?

What does the TV have to do with the apparently very narrow acceptable limits of center of gravity of a trailer?


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Old 01-26-2015, 11:02 AM   #49
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What does 'movers trailer have to do with the question of whether raising an Airstream or any trailer makes it less stable?

I'm sure J's raised trailer has caused him no problems as yet. Will it someday, somewhere make it a bit easier to sway, roll or otherwise cause a disaster? I think so, but what that point is, no one can say. I doubt J. will take it to a testing lab and find out; I wouldn't. I'm not going to wreck a trailer to prove a point. Hopefully J. has no disaster.

I also appreciate bottoming on driveways is not something anyone wants. But Airstream installs skids under the bumpers for that purpose. Hearing the sound is unpleasant, but is any harm done?

There are many factors that cause accidents—often it is combination of several at just the wrong time and place. A slight change here or there changes the total risk. Slight changes to any of the factors, or several factors, can combine in a bad way. It is very difficult to predict this in marginal situations. Everyone takes risks and is confident that they can do ok. Even objective analysis of factors such as trailer height, tire pressure, tire wear, road conditions, etc., cannot easily answer questions about specific driver skill, driver alertness, driver emotional state at any time (a bad day at home or work can mess up driver skill). In a situation where a very small thing can make the difference between an accident and no accident, the slightest thing may put you over the line. It may be towing at 85 instead of 84.5, or slightly worn tires, or the second it takes to turn down the radio, or an increase in height.

An increase of 3" is a lot. My trailer at the bottom of the banana wrap is 15" (approximately, I didn't want to be lying in the snow to get a perfect measurement; it may be lower, thus increasing the percentage difference). 3" raises it at least 20%. How much that increases risk I can't say.

We tow with a pickup though we know pickups are not the best vehicle. But I use the pickup to pick up things that don't fit in other vehicles. We don't have an SUV that can tow a 25' trailer. I don't want to spend the money to have a giant SUV to tow and still would have a smaller SUV as a daily driver; don't have a 3 car garage either. Thus we accept the risk, but try to limit it with very good tires, good maintenance, careful driving, etc.

There's no answer to the amount of risk change by increasing height unless someone with lots of money and a lab at their disposal wants to find out. There is enough data to show increasing vehicle height does increase risk, but not specifically for J.'s' trailer. Will this mean he will have an accident because of it? If he does, will the cause by increased trailer height? The future is tough to predict.

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Old 01-26-2015, 12:35 PM   #50
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How to gain more clearance

I am not going to quote your whole post, too long for me.

My belly pan sits at about 17 1/2".

The center of gravity of the trailer is somewhat higher than the bottom of the belly pan perhaps about 44" from the ground, which would mean that the center of gravity would raise somewhere less than ten percent, not even taking into account the weight of the axles and wheels which did not change.

And while you "suppose" that this will at some point cause me problems, you never mentioned having pulled an Airstream lifted three inches.

I have. If I say that there is not a lick of difference between the trailer at stock height, and the trailer at current height, do you suppose I would just fabricate this so I can impress the folks on A/F?

What if I simply found that this modification increased the utility AND safety of my trailer?

What if I find that drag plates on the rear of a trailer are a poor answer for constant dragging?


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Old 01-26-2015, 12:51 PM   #51
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So far we've had very positive reports regarding 3 inch lift from steamy1 (single axle) and J Morgan (tandem axle). I'm going to make some inquiries at a local spring/axle outfit that's been in business near me for many years (Standen's Limited :: Leaf Springs, Trailer Axles, Stabilizer Bars, Suspension Hardware, and Tillage Tools). I'll report back on their opinion and their quote.

I can't see 3" of lift being a big hazard. As others have reported, many of the SOB travel trailers don't even build with wheel wells, and they tend to travel down the highway a lot faster than I do...
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Old 01-26-2015, 01:14 PM   #52
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I have an innate ability for visualizing mechanical things in my head.

Center of gravity....

If a trailer is to be turned over by center of gravity, the center of gravity must be pushed over the outside edge of the tire. (In an arc)

This can happen in two ways, trailer tilt, or via induced g force.

If infact the center of gravity is about 44" from the ground, the trailer will need to be tipped at about 45 degrees for gravity to pull it over. And likewise, it would take a g force of at least one g to flip the trailer.

The fact that the center of gravity must be moved over the edge of the wheel in an arc, means that the three inch raise is going to influence the risk of a roll less than 1%.

If a person is going to roll one of these trailers it is because they are already in an accident, and that (at most) 1% is not likely going to make the slightest difference.

My trailer raised 3" is going to have a lower center of gravity than virtually any SOB, class A motorhome, or big truck on the road.




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Old 01-26-2015, 01:18 PM   #53
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Just got off the phone with Standens. The quote for having them do the lift work was 1600.00 all in (for modern tandem Airstream torsion axles). Ouch!

However, they've lifted many trailers over the years (a variety of brands, some Airstreams). The service foreman's opinion is that there should be no safety concern whatsoever with a 3 inch lift, given that tire rated speeds and truck towing weight limitations are not exceeded.
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Old 01-26-2015, 01:40 PM   #54
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Axles and installation, that ain't bad in my view.


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Old 01-26-2015, 02:01 PM   #55
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Axles and installation, that ain't bad in my view.


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The quote was for the lift kit, installation, and tax only. Far less expensive for trailers with leaf spring axles (600.00).
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Old 01-26-2015, 02:31 PM   #56
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Well that isn't as good as I thought.

It seems to me that the kits were about $200 per axle...

Sounds like he built in quite a bit of labor..


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Old 01-26-2015, 02:33 PM   #57
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I would say you could jump down to Little Rock and we could put them in in a couple a few hours,,, but Alberta is a long way....


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Old 01-26-2015, 04:01 PM   #58
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J., I know you feel everything is ok and you have towed your trailer and everything feels fine.

But this is not about how you feel or whether you have towed without a problem. In a situation where the trailer is at the limit and will tip or jackknife or sway, I think that will happen sooner than if you had not lifted it. The difference may be miniscule, or may be a lot more.

I can't quite understand how you have determined where the center of gravity is or how you came up with a less than 1% risk factor, but if the risk is increased at some number between 0% and 1%, then we agree that you have increased the risk, but do not agree on how much. It may be less or more than 1%; I don't know.

Buy you also may start swaying or even jackknife and I think there is also an increase in risk, but, not owning a testing lab and not willing to sacrifice a trailer, I don't know how much.

Your belly pan being at 17.5" and I came up with 15" for ours means we agree on that. I have 16" wheels and that would add about 1/2' to 5/8" (deeper tread on the Michelins than on the OEM Marathons) to our trailer height.

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Old 01-26-2015, 04:20 PM   #59
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Quote:
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Just got off the phone with Standens. The quote for having them do the lift work was 1600.00 all in (for modern tandem Airstream torsion axles). Ouch!

However, they've lifted many trailers over the years (a variety of brands, some Airstreams). The service foreman's opinion is that there should be no safety concern whatsoever with a 3 inch lift, given that tire rated speeds and truck towing weight limitations are not exceeded.
Lift kits for duel axle trailer are under $200 US direct from Dexter. I was quoted max 3 hours labor for install. My shop charges $90 hour for this type of job. Total about $500 for the project. After talking to Dexter today to discuss what kit was needed I placed my order. Going to be nice to clear the curb getting in and out of my yard. Tired of banging up my driveway. I already have a suitable draw bar for the hitch so no extra expense there.
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Old 01-26-2015, 04:30 PM   #60
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Give us a review once you're done Michael. No idea why my shop quoted so much labour, perhaps there was some confusion on their part (with me trying to describe what I wanted, this is entirely possible!).

I may call some other spring/axle shops for additional estimates. Not sure if I'll do the upgrade yet, just investigating the possibilities.
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