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Old 02-18-2008, 08:01 PM   #71
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The dealer and I have gone over what happened, but no explanation of HOW it happened. Rather than start a usless finger pointing contest, we both agree to see how the axles can be made useable. We are both hoping Dexter will allow me to ship them back for mods, he doesn't want to get stuck with them, I would prefer to have a set that match the dimension I need.
Vern,

I'm not sure this is a useless finger pointing contest, considering the $$ amount of the error. (Not only were your OB measurements off, but the axle rating as well.)

As I like to say around the pizza shop...

There are really only 3 reasons for mistakes...

Lack of training

Lack of experience

Lack of attention

When a mistake is made in my business (and unfortunately, it does happen), the feelings of the person responsible are secondary to the importance of determining WHY it happened. (This has gotten me into hot water at times, but I always manage to smooth things out later.)

I can't stand it when things go wrong after I have done everything in my power to assure that they don't. (As I like to say...procedures are in place for a reason.)

I almost ordered from a local trailer manufacturer and he was adamant about wanting to come out and measure the axles himself, as he knew the ramifications of a wrong measurement.

When I did finally order (through another forum member), I faxed a separate order sheet to the Dexter facility to make sure that the measurements matched what was ordered. (I was absolutely paranoid about going through multiple channels for fear that the specs would somehow get messed up)

The dealer should be able to produce a copy of the order form (with your signature) which was faxed to the factory, and this should tell the tale.

I cannot imagine how the factory would take these back and "re-engineer" them to the proper specs (at no cost), and still send them out with a blessing.

A more likely scenario is to order a set of bare axles (proper specs, of course) and salvage your hub assemblies from the wrong axles.

If adequate blame cannot be ascertained, perhaps the dealer would be kind enough to split the cost with you.

Quote:
I have to think Andy is enjoying this
I doubt it, but could you blame him?

I wish you the absolute best in resolving this thing. You have displayed more patience and good cheer (at least on the forum) than I probably would've.
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Old 02-19-2008, 10:48 AM   #72
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More surprises

More information I didn't expect...not with the axle order, but with the logged data.

When I tow w/o wd, it seems the bumps result in more TV pitching. Like wise I assume the wd binds the TV and TT together (as it should) and one of the effects would be less angular pitching (bobbing?)
Guess what-No such effect inside the TT. The attached shows one of the events with the yellow being TT pitching w/o wd and the red being with wd. No statistical difference with or w/o wd
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Old 02-19-2008, 12:15 PM   #73
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Nice data. No significant difference at what confidence level?

As I look at the chart there does seem to be slightly more maximum deflection in the negative direction. Of course the yellow might be laying over the magenta line and obscuring it.

Are you OK with sharing the data? This is fascinating.
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Old 02-19-2008, 12:43 PM   #74
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data files

I'll gladly share the data files but be warned, they are large. 6 meg per run, 34,000 records of the following;
LAT, LON, DIST(m), TIME, SPEED, XACC, YACC, ZACC, ROLL, PITCH, ROLLRATE, PITCHRATE, YAWRATE
(I sized the run so the data can still be imported by excel for manipulation)

One of the problems I have with sumizing the 3 runs is the Airstream data does not have GPS logs (No antenna extension ). Therefore some of the fields do not have the data I would normally use to sync the various runs. This limits my ability of removing gyro drift over the length of the run.
The three main things that I am interested in are-
What is the effect of WD? (assumption; rougher ride, less pitching)
Are the shocks effective? (assumption; not gonna make a big difference)
Do new axles ride different than new? (assumption; old axles bottom out and ride stiffer)
I have the answer to a couple of these and need to get this huge mess on my new axles sorted to continue.

PM me if you want the files.
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Old 02-19-2008, 01:37 PM   #75
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Sticking my neck out

I agree with your assumptions ... however,

the part I dissagree with is your assumption about new shocks on a new axle. (Assuming you run the test on the new axle with and with out new shocks.) My assumption (or therory) is new shocks on a new axle will make a difference that can be felt barely and can be measured definately. The real question in my mind is if the difference worth the cost. (You define this as a big difference) Since that is a value judgement, different people will have different thresh holds as to the answer. The risk is about $80 for shocks and new brackets on the new axle. Not a great cost and my therory is the result will not be all that great either.

I further believe that the shocks on the TV are due for replacement. You have a base line test for that with the existing shocks. I assume that there will be improvement there too. Course this is all your funds and not mine however with 2 to 3 years of use and 60,000 miles IMO those shocks have reached the end or near the end of their service life.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Action
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Old 02-19-2008, 01:48 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Action
I agree with your assumptions ... however,

the part I dissagree with is your assumption about new shocks on a new axle. (Assuming you run the test on the new axle with and with out new shocks.) My assumption (or therory) is new shocks on a new axle will make a difference that can be felt barely and can be measured definately. The real question in my mind is if the difference worth the cost. (You define this as a big difference) Since that is a value judgement, different people will have different thresh holds as to the answer. The risk is about $80 for shocks and new brackets on the new axle. Not a great cost and my therory is the result will not be all that great either.

I further believe that the shocks on the TV are due for replacement. You have a base line test for that with the existing shocks. I assume that there will be improvement there too. Course this is all your funds and not mine however with 2 to 3 years of use and 60,000 miles IMO those shocks have reached the end or near the end of their service life.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Action
My assumption on not needing the TT shocks could be wrong, we'll see how the testing goes, I did order the shock brackets after all . I originally assumed the test would show the shocks had no effect but I'm not so sure the test will bear that out.

As far as the truck, it's outside the scope of this study.
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Old 02-19-2008, 01:57 PM   #77
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REALLY Interesting

Quote:
Originally Posted by HiHoAgRV
More information I didn't expect...not with the axle order, but with the logged data.....The attached shows one of the events with the yellow being TT pitching w/o wd and the red being with wd. No statistical difference with or w/o wd




What about the Y Acceleration - do you have the same duplication of graph characteristics on the Y axis as with the pitch? I always thought that "Y" vibration and movement is what did the most destruction - or do you think that pitch is the main culprit?

I do understand how pitch could be important, since the true "Y" movement is not amplified over the trailer height, but pitch amplitudes would be much worse at the + 7' level than at floor level.

Can't wait to see the same run with the new axles.

Wouldn't it be a hoot if the new run would show no improvement at all!

Man, you NEED to get the GPS working inside the trailer.
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Old 02-19-2008, 02:06 PM   #78
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What about the Y Acceleration - do you have the same duplication of graph characteristics on the Y axis as with the pitch? I always thought that "Y" vibration and movement is what did the most destruction - or do you think that pitch is the main culprit?__________________
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Old 02-19-2008, 02:17 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 87MH

What about the Y Acceleration - do you have the same duplication of graph characteristics on the Y axis as with the pitch? I always thought that "Y" vibration and movement is what did the most destruction - or do you think that pitch is the main culprit?
I do understand how pitch could be important, since the true "Y" movement is not amplified over the trailer height, but pitch amplitudes would be much worse at the + 7' level than at floor level.
My nomenclature uses "X" fore and aft/Pitch, "Y" left and right/Roll(Lean) and "Z " is up/down/yaw(turn)

My main interest for pitch revolves (ha! get it!) about the ends of the trailer and the results of them flopping up and down. I assumed the flopping would be reduced with WD, thus a justification to use it (minimize rear end issues, bikes on the bumper{ }).
I might have a chance in the next few days to look at the rolling axis and see if there is anything there, my assumption is no difference, w or w/o wd.
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Old 02-19-2008, 02:27 PM   #80
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Hey, that's easy

As soon as posted the last response my brain jumped back in gear and reminded me it was easy to show roll over the same spot. No math analysis so far, but boy do both lines look similar!
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Old 02-19-2008, 02:52 PM   #81
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good stuff hiho!

while the tv isn't the focus, were the tv measurements taken from the bed or cab?

i don't think the a/s shocks make much difference with rubber torsen axles...

i've got a bicycle with rubber torsen axle suspension similar to a/s and it doesn't need shocks

it might be interesting to take measurements from the hitch/tongue/ball area...

for comparison to the interior trailer data...

cheers
2air'
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Old 02-19-2008, 03:49 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2airishuman
good stuff hiho!

while the tv isn't the focus, were the tv measurements taken from the bed or cab?

i don't think the a/s shocks make much difference with rubber torsen axles...

i've got a bicycle with rubber torsen axle suspension similar to a/s and it doesn't need shocks

it might be interesting to take measurements from the hitch/tongue/ball area...

for comparison to the interior trailer data...

cheers
2air'
TV data was from as close to the center of the wheelbase as possible, centered in the rear floor just behind the front seat. The only shortcut I made was not screwing it to the floor . It was very securely held in place and based on my experience, it recorded good data. I did consider looking at the hitch ball area but logistics and timing didn't allow it for this set of runs. The single reason for including the TV was for a seat-of-the-pants baseline. My intrepretation of the difference?-The TV hits a bump, whacks past and settles down very quickly, like any typical 3/4 ton. The Airstream hits the same bump, smoothes it but continues to cycle up and down for a (unexpectedly) long time. The same can be seen on a stiff suspended, highly shock dampened vehicle as compared to something like a minivan with very high miles and worn shocks.

BTW, cool bike...
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Old 02-19-2008, 06:18 PM   #83
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Ride height

One more item to document, ride height. Original suspension, 1/4 tank fresh water, empty holding tanks, Marathon tires.

Mud from Saturday nights thunderstorm at the campground...
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Old 02-21-2008, 02:40 PM   #84
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Does not seem to be a low rider in this picture with the old axles.

Any word from Dexter on the axle's that you received?

Don
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