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Old 05-21-2009, 04:40 PM   #1
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Axle GVWR for my '78 Argosy Minuet

Hey Andy - can you clear something up for me. After reading a number of posts on axles, I am confused.

We have taken our 78 Argosy Minuet 6.7metre in to measure for new axle. At this point we now know that the axle on her is original, a 3500 w/10" brakes. Here is my confusion. The GVWR on a 6.7 is 3800. This concerned me when reading that there needs to be extra allowance for added weight. The man who did the measurements said that the tongue/hitch weight (w propane tanks) is about 300lbs so that is subtracted because the hitch does not ride on the axle. That makes sense, but has not, to my knowledge been addressed on posts I have read. If it is true, I guess we are ok in getting the 3500 because we will still have extra to add weight, right??? I just want to make sure we are getting the right axle weight. Thanks.
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Old 05-21-2009, 04:51 PM   #2
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Hey Andy - can you clear something up for me. After reading a number of posts on axles, I am confused.

We have taken our 78 Argosy Minuet 6.7metre in to measure for new axle. At this point we now know that the axle on her is original, a 3500 w/10" brakes. Here is my confusion. The GVWR on a 6.7 is 3800. This concerned me when reading that there needs to be extra allowance for added weight. The man who did the measurements said that the tongue/hitch weight (w propane tanks) is about 300lbs so that is subtracted because the hitch does not ride on the axle. That makes sense, but has not, to my knowledge been addressed on posts I have read. If it is true, I guess we are ok in getting the 3500 because we will still have extra to add weight, right??? I just want to make sure we are getting the right axle weight. Thanks.
The original axle on your Minuet was rated at 3300 pounds.

We replace them with 3500 pounds.

If your rig has the correct rated hitch bars, and they are properly installed, and properly adjusted, then 1/3 of the tounge weight goes back to the trailer axle/axles and 2/3 goes to the tow vehicle
.
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Old 05-21-2009, 04:57 PM   #3
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OK, so if originally rated to 3300, but the GVWR rating in the manual for the 6.7metre is 3800, isn't it too small an axle even w/3500? I'm still confused?? and what about extra capacity for additional weight in the trailer? Sorry
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Old 05-21-2009, 05:06 PM   #4
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OK, so if originally rated to 3300, but the GVWR rating in the manual for the 6.7metre is 3800, isn't it too small an axle even w/3500? I'm still confused?? and what about extra capacity for additional weight in the trailer? Sorry
We could also replace that axle, with 4000 pounds and I believe with 12 inch brakes.

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Old 05-21-2009, 05:17 PM   #5
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Its not that I'm against using the 3500. I just want to understand why my GVRW is 3800 and the axle they originally installed is 3500 when everything I have read says the axle should match or somewhat exceed the GVRW so that it will handle carrying extra cargo weight. Please can you explain why they put on 3500 which is less than the GVWR of 3800? Thanks.
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Old 05-21-2009, 05:43 PM   #6
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thats the maximum weight. thats what the "gross" in "gvwr" is. there is no "extra", beyond that.
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Old 05-21-2009, 05:45 PM   #7
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OK, so our GVRW is suppose to be up to 3800, but if we have or reinstall a 3500 axle that will then be our GVRW, right???
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Old 05-24-2009, 10:49 AM   #8
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Well, I'm not sure I completely understand this whole axle weight rating situation mainly because I have read so many posts indicating a need for axles going onto trailers which give extra capacity for addit. weight beyond the axle weight rating? Then to have our original axle end up being less than our GVWR. But, the explanation (by the man doing measurements) of at least 300 lbs of the GVWR being on the hitch and the fact that the original axle has been doing the job leads me to beleive we will be fine if we replace w/same. The only concern is if we were to add AC and the extra weight there? If anyone can clear this up for me, I would sure appreciate it. Thanks.
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Old 05-24-2009, 10:54 AM   #9
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Well, I'm not sure I completely understand this whole axle weight rating situation mainly because I have read so many posts indicating a need for axles going onto trailers which give extra capacity for addit. weight beyond the axle weight rating? Then to have our original axle end up being less than our GVWR. But, the explanation (by the man doing measurements) of at least 300 lbs of the GVWR being on the hitch and the fact that the original axle has been doing the job leads me to beleive we will be fine if we replace w/same. The only concern is if we were to add AC and the extra weight there? If anyone can clear this up for me, I would sure appreciate it. Thanks.
Only you can determine the payloads that you would normally carry.

You can, if you wish, kick the rating up to 3500 or 4000 pounds, your choice.

Andy
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Old 05-25-2009, 10:09 AM   #10
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The GVWR is the max capacity that vehicle (in this case a trailer ) was designed to handle. It includes the load and the trailer itself. This is done with computers hwoever back in 1967 this was likely accomplished with a mock up unit. (A proto-type) Then using mass produced parts that are exactly the same + or - a tollerance, a trailer cn be made to to that job of the XXXX GVWR.

Now as for each individual parts, typically those parts have a rating that meets or exceeds the standard the vehicle was designed, may be fractionally. This means the entire unit. The running gear, shell, flooring, brakes, hitch - everything. Changing an individual part out for larger weight rating doen't mean the unit can do the job. It may for a period of time just not forever. - I would doubt the original axle(s) you have has a less weight rating than the GVWR design.

Couple of other comments - first is we are speaking about 1967 designs and engineering. Back then the computing wasn't available for the designing. Heck the computer you are using to read this far exceeds what was available at that time. So there was some excess built into those units. As the price became more of a factor in marketing the designs were tightened as to the tollerance. Such that today exceeding the weight rating by any amount will not work.

I hope this helps.

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Old 05-25-2009, 11:34 AM   #11
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I'm probably overthinking this whole thing.

Anyway, the "measurement man" is going to take the trailer down to have it weighed w/what it has in/on it at this point. I would say, other than the propane tanks, and maybe some food items, it has the amount of weight attached to it that it normally would. Once we have that number in hand, we will be able to determine the best axle for the job, wouldn't you say???

I have no idea how they determined the "correct" axle for our 78 Minuet, (guess/computer), but what seemed to stand out in other conversations was how much "EXTRA" stuff (beyond shell of trailer+axle) the axle would be carrying. If Andy is correct (& figure he would be) & our original axle was rated to 3300 it should mean we not carry any more than that amount of weight on the axle. If we think we will carry more weight, we can go as high as 4000 w/o creating the "hard" ride. That part I'm pretty sure I understand

We will probably end up w/a 3500 axle. Just thought it intriguing that a 3800 GVWR trailer would have an axle rated for quite a bit less than that.
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Old 05-25-2009, 01:31 PM   #12
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my mom

My mom was famous for collecting rocks for her collection during our travels with the Minuet. She would chuck them into the bins and forget to tell my dad! Dad was a NASA engineer. Now THAT was a big dilemma for him as he tried to keep track of how much cargo/load he was hauling on that axle!!
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Old 05-25-2009, 02:47 PM   #13
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Leigh,

Questions?
Single axle or double?
Where did you get the GVWR from? This should not be confused with dry weight.
The Airstream site does not give data for Argosy and for Airstreams does notlist GVWR until model year 1989, so the 3800 # number you quote is that from your trailer VIN plate?

Buying an axle that is greater than the GVWR does not mean it will carry more weight. It only means the axle assembly is good for it. If it is a bare axle then the brakes and bearing may not be up for the task. Then there is the rest of the trailer to consider. Exceeding by a couple hundred pounds, not likely an issue. However you need to know (after you get your tariler weighed which is a very good move) that you may be operating on the edge or over the edge. If that is the case I would be towing at slower speeds over less rough conditions.

>>>>>>>>>>>>Action
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Old 05-25-2009, 02:48 PM   #14
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Larry - thanks for the chuckle!! We also have a rock collector - he just gradulated HS. I love that your Minuet has so many memories attached to it. I hope some day one of our 2 boys will also want to carry on that tradition!...
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Old 05-25-2009, 03:00 PM   #15
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Hi there MR. Action Moderator Dude - so you want to take this on

Here is all of what I have - directly from my super duper 1978 Argosy Owners Manual. Weights and Ratings for the 6.7 Minuet.


Factory Weight w/o options or variable weights 2725
Allow. Addtl Weight (Axle System) 1075
If you add Addt. Weight + Factory Weight it = 3800 GVRW

Also,
Factory Axle Weight 2446
Allow. Addtl Total Weight Incl. Persnl Cargo 824
If you add those together you =
Gross Axle Weight or GAWR 3270

and finally
Factory Tongue (hitch) Weight w/o options 300

I've also got a whole list next to the above which shows optional Equip. w/columns for Total Weight and Axle Weight and Tongue Weight side by side. Whooppeeee PS Single Axle
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Old 05-25-2009, 03:36 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by COArgosy78 View Post
Hi there MR. Action Moderator Dude - so you want to take this on

Here is all of what I have - directly from my super duper 1978 Argosy Owners Manual. Weights and Ratings for the 6.7 Minuet.


Factory Weight w/o options or variable weights 2725
Allow. Addtl Weight (Axle System) 1075
If you add Addt. Weight + Factory Weight it = 3800 GVRW

Also,
Factory Axle Weight 2446
Allow. Addtl Total Weight Incl. Persnl Cargo 824
If you add those together you =
Gross Axle Weight or GAWR 3270

and finally
Factory Tongue (hitch) Weight w/o options 300

I've also got a whole list next to the above which shows optional Equip. w/columns for Total Weight and Axle Weight and Tongue Weight side by side. Whooppeeee PS Single Axle

I prefer Action. (like Cher just a single name)

The math I highlited above from your post, was that in your owner's manual or did you just do this to arrive at a GVWR? (Which is likely accurate)

The factory weight is the dry weight of the trailer. Adding ...
propane
water
waste water
personal gear - food, beverages, clothing and other wanted items
The total designed max trailer weight towing is that number of 3800#'s

The axle weight rating of 3270 (or as Andy stated earlier 3300#'s) is what the axle designed needed. The other 500 #'s are in tongue weight, tires, wheels. Because the axle doesn't carry the tires and the wheels. Note 7 to 10% of the trailer weight is on the tongue or the tow vehicle via the tongue.


Making an assumption that you are not taking a survey and you would like to replace the axle for some reason. the replacement needs to follow -
The bare min axle rating you would need is 3300 #'s. However if you go higher say 10% higher, this would give you an extra margin of safety. It does not mean your trailer is now capable of towing any more weight. Also the theory of bigger is better does not continue. So if you go up 25% in weight rating would that be better? Not really. First it is a waste of cash. Second getting too big means the axle assemble may not fit the unit. Last is the ride provided may not be suitable for the trailer. IE too harsh of a ride.

Using that as a guide your axle weight rating choice should be between 3270 and 3600 pounds.

>>>>>>>>>>>Action
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Old 05-25-2009, 04:37 PM   #17
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Hello again Action - I have been reading up a bit in the Argosy Manual under the page titled "Loading". In the past, we did not spend too much time considering all this because we put almost all personal items in the back of our TV. The old axle just tossed everything in the trailer too much. Now that we are planning the replacement of axle, I plan to put items to stay in trailer & so, will end up w/more weight and we may in the future need AC, plus trying to figure out about placement of spare mount/tire. Those are the main weight gain concerns.

This part of your post is where I guess I have lost it...

The bare min axle rating you would need is 3300 #'s. However if you go higher say 10% higher, this would give you an extra margin of safety. It does not mean your trailer is now capable of towing any more weight.

What is the extra margin of safety for?

I want to post some info I am getting from the Loading page, but need to digest first.

I'm pretty sure we will go w/3500# axle.

I do appreciate all the time and trouble you are taking to try to make this clear.

PS. The GVWR came directly from the manual, not my addition.

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Old 05-25-2009, 05:16 PM   #18
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Based on the data you have given your trailer should not exceed 3800 pounds when fully loaded and ready to tow. Taking it to a scale is a great start. It gives you a point A to know what you are dealing with and how much or little you have to left.

Upgrading to a larger axle weight rating, still means your 30+ year old trailer has old used parts on it with 30 + year old design limits on it. The frame, flooring and body are all part of the structure of this type of trailer. The entire axle (shocks, brakes wheel bearings) if all replaced are is the vast majority of the load carrying capability of the trailer. However I am not an engineer and I have never played one on TV. What I do know is your trailer was designed for a total weight limit. It appears to be 3800 #'s. To exceed that means you are taking the design into waters the trailer was never meant to swim in.

Getting the 3500 # axle gives you a extra margin of longer durability, may be better weight control when towing. Or better performance in it's job of carrying the load. This may show up as less sway or less adverse towing quirks. However it isn't the only component of the trailer that supports weight.

So it is like that childs game of the heads popping up and you have a hammer to hit the heads popping up. The axle is one link in the chain of the weight carrying job.

Adding options - this will drive up the weight, however the other personal items may add more than you think. BTW recent designs of A/C units have made them lighter, shorter and quieter. A place you can shed weight is water. It is 8+ pounds a gallon. 15 gallons of water carried is like 125 pounds. Likely more than your A/C and spare tire and wheel would weigh together.

PS don't forget to have tires that are rated at 1900 (or 1880) pounds each and keep them inflated to max.

>>>>>>>>Action
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Old 05-25-2009, 08:12 PM   #19
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Axle GVWR for my 78 Argosy Minuet

Greetings Leigh!

When my axle was replaced on the Minuet, I went with the 10% upgrade in load handling capability. It did make a world of difference in the coach's ride quality -- it is rare that anything changes places greatly, particularly when I tow with the Cadillac. The one thing that I wish that I would have done is insisted on a greater down angle on the torsion arms -- I gained very little in clearance which was my greatest concern.

One thing that I have noted with my Minuet is that it likes to be towed with its water tank full or near full. Its location immediately behind the "A" frame places much of the additional weight on the tongue which IMHO helps the Minuet to be such a well-mannered single axle coach.

Good luck with your research!

Kevin
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