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Old 01-07-2012, 10:21 PM   #1
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Supplemental heaters and furnace setting

For those that use a supplemental electric heater, what do you usually keep the furnace thermostat on?
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Old 01-07-2012, 10:28 PM   #2
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Off, if we are using electric heating, we do no use the furnance. If we are boondocking and using a generator, we will turn the furnace off at night, hubby pops up in the am and turns it on to warm up. Then we turn it off again until we feel chilled. So far we haven't camped in freezing temps that would make us be concerned about frozen pipes. I am up a little later at night, but for the most part, I just have my pj's and robe along with a blanket wrapped around. Flannel sheets and comfortors. Snuggle up.
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Old 01-08-2012, 05:37 AM   #3
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We don't like to be cold, or even chilly, when relaxing in the friendly confines of our trailer. If we are using a cube heater we set the furnace at a setting we think might be the lowest temp we'd like to be, maybe 62-64, then adjust it as nite temps fall and/or we become uncomfortable. We sort of let the electric supplement the furnace, hopefully without using an excess of either. We are not fulltimers(gotta work till we drop) so propane consumption becomes part of the necessary camping evils like a few extra beers(wifey), full bottle of single malt(me), extra thick steak(both), and the $4.00 a gallon diesel fuel to get there and back. Safe & happy travels. John
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Old 01-08-2012, 06:17 AM   #4
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We keep our thermostat set at 54 at night and warm up the AS in the am with the furnace. At night before bedtime, we use the Vornado electric space heater in the "living room", because it is safe ( especially around grandchildren) and reliable...about $40 at Costco.

Our biggest problem with colder weather....around freezing... is condensation inside the AS so we use an electric dehumidifier, especially in the BR to minimize the condensation. Works fairly well. In colder weather, we simply have to use the furnace to protect the holding tanks and keep us toasty.
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Old 01-08-2012, 06:37 AM   #5
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Furnace 64*, one 1500watt electric, and sometimes and electric mattress pad.
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Old 01-08-2012, 06:53 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by KYAirstream View Post
For those that use a supplemental electric heater, what do you usually keep the furnace thermostat on?
We have an electric heater permanently mounted in a wall in the center of the trailer. It has its own thermostat.

When electricity is available we set the electric heater thermostat at whatever temperature we want the trailer at, usually 70 degrees. If it's cold out we set the thermostat for the propane furnace a few degrees lower so it will run when the electric heat can't keep up by itself, usually around 50 degrees or so with no wind.
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Old 01-08-2012, 07:16 AM   #7
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We learned very quickly that the forced air furnace can go through a tank of propane in just 2-3 days, saying nothing about the required electricity. So we don't like to use it any more than we have to..

When hooked up to electric power (and we don't have to worry about dead batteries come morning), we will set the thermostat at 50 degrees. We sleep under down, so its not like we freeze. In the morning, we crank it up, turn the stove top on to get the coffee going, and turn on the cat heater I installed. Once the chill is gone, the forced air gets turned off, and the cat takes over (we like its raidient heat much better). Clearly we haven't camped in extended freezing weather, mostly because the Airstream is winterized, and I don't want to deal with that more than once a year.

I have also installed an on-board generator that runs on propane, which we use once a day for a half an hour when boon docking to top off the batteries.
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Old 01-08-2012, 07:30 AM   #8
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Thanks for all the replies! So when it's cold out (below freezing), what keeps tanks from freezing when using a supplemental heater. When does it become an issue that the electric heater prevents the furnace from kicking on, thereby causing frozen tanks to be a concern?

Or are the BTU's from electric heaters never enough to maintain temps on nights when it is cold enough for frozen tanks to be an issue, as long as the furnace is set at 40 degrees or more?

But wouldn't electric heaters be able to maintain a 40 degree temp even on COLD nights, thereby preventing the furnace from kicking on and possibly resulting in frozen pipes or tanks?

Jammer - do you happen to have a pic of your heater permanently mounted in a center wall?
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Old 01-08-2012, 07:35 AM   #9
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We learned very quickly that the forced air furnace can go through a tank of propane in just 2-3 days, saying nothing about the required electricity. So we don't like to use it any more than we have to..

Yes, I've experienced that and it gets expensive when camping in cold temps a lot. I'm playing around with supplemental electric heaters, but want to make sure I don't create problems elsewhere with frozen pipes/tanks.

I've considered installing heat tape or an electric mat around the tanks, but I'd rather not go that route if I don't have to....
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Old 01-08-2012, 07:39 AM   #10
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We "snowbird" six months in the Southwest each year. Use a Dyson Hot heater (near perfect temp control, comfortable volume of warm air) under the front dinette set at 66 degrees at night, and aimed aft towards rear bedroom. Furnace thermostat in bedroom set at 65. Crack the bedroom vent. The two bath roof vents always open, unless there is wind-driven rain.

The Dyson keeps temps even all night until near freezing outside. Then the furnace comes on to supplement it, and begins to protect the storage tanks.

We use an electric mattress pad for a warm bed to crawl into, and set it very low while sleeping.

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Old 01-08-2012, 07:56 AM   #11
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We use an electric mattress pad for a warm bed to crawl into, and set it very low while sleeping.
doug k
I've considered getting an electric blanket or mattress pad for those really cold nights. Any benefit of a pad over a blanket? Any safety concerns?
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Old 01-08-2012, 07:57 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by KYAirstream View Post
Thanks for all the replies! So when it's cold out (below freezing), what keeps tanks from freezing when using a supplemental heater. When does it become an issue that the electric heater prevents the furnace from kicking on, thereby causing frozen tanks to be a concern?

Or are the BTU's from electric heaters never enough to maintain temps on nights when it is cold enough for frozen tanks to be an issue, as long as the furnace is set at 40 degrees or more?

But wouldn't electric heaters be able to maintain a 40 degree temp even on COLD nights, thereby preventing the furnace from kicking on and possibly resulting in frozen pipes or tanks?

Jammer - do you happen to have a pic of your heater permanently mounted in a center wall?
We have a ceramic oscillating heater that we take with us for the cold nights. It has it's own thermostat, so it's pretty much a set it and forget it type of thing. We used to keep it in the bathroom (rear bathroom floor plan, 70's trailer). However, since the thermostat for the propane furnace is just into the bedroom from the bathroom on the wall, with the ceramic/electric going in the bathroom, we had to crank up the propane themostat setting in order to make sure the kids sleeping in the front didn't get too cold. We've since changed things a bit in that the ceramic heater goes in the kitchen overnight (near to the propane furnace). This way, the two heat sources are producing from the same location in the trailer. Now we set the propane furnace thermostat set a little lower so that it would only kick in if the ceramic one can't keep up in the lowest temps. of the night. It's a little chilly if one needs to visit the bathroom for a sit down session during the night, but it's better than trying to set thermostats really weird to control two sources. Plus, I'd rather my wife an I get chilly than my kids.

As for heating the tanks...I don't worry about it. I'm not camping when it's that cold outside for an average temp. on the day. If it dips below 32 over night for a few hours, my pipes and tanks aren't going to freeze especially if I'm living in there with heaters on. On the days where it's below 32 all day and for multiple days; the Airstream is winterized and parked in the barn!
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Old 01-08-2012, 08:12 AM   #13
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Since the forced air pushes warm air down to the tanks (you can access the furnace plumbing that goes to the tanks), it is evident that supplemental heat sources, without either tapping into the same duct work or having it's own, will not heat the tanks. There must be a process to get the heat to the needed area if it is to be heated.

However, just because the temps go below freezing at night does not mean stuff will freeze - which, for example, is why though the temps at night reach the freezing point, a blanket placed over a tomato plant can keep it from being killed.

So I assume what is really being asked is in reference to longer term - below freezing temps that will do damage without a source of heat.

In other words, the real issue I hear you asking about is how to get heat to the plumbing and tanks without using the very inefficient forced air furnace. Is that correct?
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Old 01-08-2012, 09:29 AM   #14
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You can keep the grey and black water tanks from freezing by using windshield washer fluid (winter formula) in the tanks. It is relatively cheap. You would not get much protection below 20F.
I have been doing some modifications to our '74 Argosy 26'. The FW holding tank is across the front of the trailer. The pump is right next to it under the dinette seat. The main water line runs down the street side behind the refer, closet and under the bed. All of the pipes are PEX.
There were two areas of concern with the main water line; first where it crosses the intake vent for the refer; second the area under the bed. I routed the pipe behind the refer about 24" high on the wall instead of on the floor. By doing this I hope to take advantage of some of the heat the refer puts out. The pipe drops back to floor level in the back of the closet then runs next to the wheel well and under the bed to the water heater location, then both hot and cold go into the bath. This area is closed off to any heat source because of the cabinets and storage compartments under the bed. I installed a small 12volt fan which I salvaged from an old desktop computer in the toe kick area under the bed immediately across the aisle from the furnace discharge duct. There is a switch inside the bath cabinet to turn on the fan. The fan pulls heated air from the aisle way and pushes it into this dead space.
On the curb side the furnace duct runs right next to the water lines to the galley. I installed the bubble wrap foil type of insulation by taping the edge of it along the length of the heat duct, then draping it over the water lines, kind of like a little tent. Thinking that the warm duct will provide enough heat to keep the lines from freezing if the heat can be held near the lines.
The small fan I installed ran way to fast and was noisy. To eliminate this problem I wired a 5 ohm 10 watt resister in series with the fan motor. Resulting in a slower fan speed and very little noise. The fan motor draws less than 1/4 amp.
What led me to make these "improvements" was on 2 occasions last year. Once in May in the Colorado mountains 7,000 ft elevation and in October on a trip to Iowa the temps dropped to below 20F at night and we woke up to frozen pipes. Nothing broke and within 20 minutes of the trailer being in the morning sun the pipes had thawed and we had water.
My conclusion was since it didn't take much for the pipes to thaw, it wouldn't take much to prevent them from freezing. I ran a test when the outside temp was 20F here, while these "dead" spaces I call them were not as warm as the cabin they were well above freezing. So I am happy with the results so far. The real test will be on the road.
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Old 01-08-2012, 09:58 AM   #15
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". . . benefits of electric blanket or mattress pad? Safety concerns?"

We use the blanket at home and the pad in the Airstream. Close call, they both work well, but I like the pad because it doesn't move off me when the wife rolls over and takes the blanket with her.

The electromagnetic field created by the AC power may have a risk (that's another topic) but no less than the converter under lounges and beds. I think you have to be careful not to go to sleep with setting too high as your body temp may become too warm. Fire concerns, I don't see any.

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Old 01-08-2012, 02:30 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jammer View Post
We have an electric heater permanently mounted in a wall in the center of the trailer. It has its own thermostat.

When electricity is available we set the electric heater thermostat at whatever temperature we want the trailer at, usually 70 degrees. If it's cold out we set the thermostat for the propane furnace a few degrees lower so it will run when the electric heat can't keep up by itself, usually around 50 degrees or so with no wind.
We do the same ... but drain/blow the water tanks if the extended temps are below freezing.
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Old 01-08-2012, 10:21 PM   #17
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When hooked up to shore power, we keep the thermostat at 62 or 63 degrees and run a 1500 watt electric heater. We've been comfortable in the mid-20's. We do have a second electric heater we periodically use but not when we are sleeping. If no shore power, we don't use the furnace until morning.
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Old 01-09-2012, 06:26 AM   #18
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Thanks for all the replies! So when it's cold out (below freezing), what keeps tanks from freezing when using a supplemental heater. When does it become an issue that the electric heater prevents the furnace from kicking on, thereby causing frozen tanks to be a concern?

Or are the BTU's from electric heaters never enough to maintain temps on nights when it is cold enough for frozen tanks to be an issue, as long as the furnace is set at 40 degrees or more?

But wouldn't electric heaters be able to maintain a 40 degree temp even on COLD nights, thereby preventing the furnace from kicking on and possibly resulting in frozen pipes or tanks?
The extent to which the furnace ducting prevents frozen pipes and tanks is vastly overrated. The main thing is to keep the trailer warm. 40 degrees isn't warm enough to reliably prevent pipes from freezing in really cold weather whether you use the furnace or some other source of heat. Trailer layouts vary but on mine the plumbing to the lavatory sink is most vulnerable -- it's on the side away from the furnace so there's no ductwork, and it's inside a cabinet and next to the outside wall.

Much depends on the temperatures you expect. If it's going to get down to 20 degrees or lower I leave the water heater on and the thermostat at 70.

Quote:
Jammer - do you happen to have a pic of your heater permanently mounted in a center wall?
There are some photos of my installation and Whitelight's (who has a similar setup) in this thread:

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f427...ble-64289.html
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Old 01-09-2012, 04:25 PM   #19
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In other words, the real issue I hear you asking about is how to get heat to the plumbing and tanks without using the very inefficient forced air furnace. Is that correct?
Yes, in part.

The first part of my question is....if running two 1500W space heaters on a COLD night (below 30), and the furnace thermostat is set low (say 45 degrees), do people find the space heaters will prevent the furnace from ever kicking on? And if so, then what does one do to make sure the tanks/pipes receive sufficient heat?
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Old 01-09-2012, 04:27 PM   #20
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TG Twinkie - great idea about the windshield wiper fluid. And nice fix with that fan!
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