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03-28-2006, 09:25 PM
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#1
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Rivet Master
1987 29' Sovereign
Sparta
, Tennessee
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 509
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Questionable Airstream Engineering
I have a 1987 29' Sovereign that is going through the replace, repair syndrone on its major operating systems.
I am really unimpressed by Airstream's engineering of the overall coach and fitment of the operating systems. I realize that 1987 was at the end of the Beatrice Foods period but, I suspect they are still doing many of the same things today. Their engineering is about even with GM, Ford, & Chrysler and we all know what is happening to those three. For example ---
(1) The furnace is stuck under the oven and impossible to service anything without removal & hard to remove.
(2) The water heater is near impossible. Under the bathroom cabinet, cabinet front screwed in from the inside, shelf stapled in, sink drain & trap not removeable from shelf, outside skin & inside skin opening not to Attwood dimensions,(heater is installed before coach is finished)
(3) Nearly impossible to change a bypass valve.
(4) Nearly impossible to change a thetford water control valve.
(5) Cheap trailer plastic plumbing.
(6) Kitchen faucet by mystery manufacturer. (manual says Moen or Delta, plumber says not)
(7) Plastic end caps split due to being restrained during cold weather.
I was told by one of Camping World's mechanics that they hate to see an airstream come in because they always shoehorn systems in to the point where they can't be worked on. I would suspect that has a lot to do with their charges to service a coach.
I was replacing the water heater today. You couldn't afford to pay me to do yours.
I am looking forward to fixing the fresh water tank leak.
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03-28-2006, 09:33 PM
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#2
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Rivet Master
1979 23' Safari
1954 29' Liner
Orange
, California
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 3,850
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Beatrice sold Airstream to Thor in 1979. Your trailer is the eighth year of Thor ownership.
Bill
__________________
Bill Kerfoot, WBCCI/VAC/CAC/El Camino Real Unit #5223
Just my personal opinion
1973 Dodge W200 PowerWagon, 1977 Lincoln Continental, 2014 Dodge Durango
1979 23' Safari, and 1954 29' Double Door Liner Orange, CA
https://billbethsblog.blogspot.com/
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03-28-2006, 09:34 PM
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#3
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Rivet Master
, Minnesota
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 7,721
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I agree.
I see it as an opportunity to gut mine and redo everything to my own standards.
I couldn't afford to pay you to do mine. On the other hand, if Airstream built them to my standards, no-one could afford to buy one. Fortunately my labor is cheap.
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03-28-2006, 10:13 PM
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#4
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Frank S
1973 27' Overlander
peoria
, Illinois
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 316
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Wingfoot 321--I have replaced most all of the items you mention, on my 1973 27' Overlander and, as with you, find the Airstream most difficult to work on. Seems next to impossible to find any room to get at anything that needs to be unbolted, unscrewed, uncoupled, or just plain pulled out. We do however find our Airstream easy to live in. Everything seems to be in just the right place for people in a confined place; a design well thought out over time. When I start a repair project, I know it's going to be all the things you mentioned, so I allow plenty of time, figure it will take 3-times longer than I thought, and think about all the fun we've had on Airstream trips. By the way, all 3 of my faucets are Moen. Hang in there, you'll make it.--Frank S
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03-29-2006, 03:11 AM
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#5
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Rivet Monster
1975 31' Sovereign
1980 31' Excella II
Sprung Leak
, North Carolina
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 7,172
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Airstreams are no better no worse than most of the other units out there. Besides show me any other trailer that can last 30 years with minimal maintenance or in many cases total abuse and still be fairly usable. I made a small fortune back in the late 70's rebuilding rear baths on Wilderness trailers, you could not get to the toilet to remove it to rebuild the entire rear wall that rotted out. Airstream uses the same components as the other TT manufacturers, and I agree a lot of the stuff is junk. I look at, inspect, and research RV's on a constant basis...hobby of mine IMHO the best built RV on the market in what I would call a "reasonable" price point is the Heartland Bighorn/Landmark fith wheels. They have done their homework! Airstream could do better but they are owned by Thor and profit driven, bottom line is king! I love my Airstream with all it's faults and yes I have cussed the engineers and designers for some of the stupid stuff they have done. But my trailer is 31 years old this month and has not had the best of care. But is still in servicable shape, and repairable.
Aaron
__________________
....so many Airstreams....so little time...
WBCCI #XXXX AIR #2495
Why are we in this basket...and where are we going
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03-29-2006, 04:11 AM
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#6
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Rivet Master
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 1,335
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The best solution for many of these issues is my slim lightweight wife. In the past she has been able to reach broken drain fittings, thread wires and gain access to places my large hands and frame could never reach. In the future I may have a problem...........
We were replacing the rusted out water heater. After it was installed I needed to fit insulation all round it. Access to the rear of the heater is almost possible via a rear locker. With much contortioning, my wife was able to get completely into the locker, legs and all, so that I could close the flap on her if I so desired. I then passed pieces of cut foam insulation to her suggested measurements, and the job was going according to plan, albeit she was very cramped and uncomfortable. Until.................. she saw the scorpion, inches from her nose!
Nick.
__________________
Nick Crowhurst, Excella 25 1988, Dodge Ram 2500 Cummins Diesel. England in summer, USA in winter.
"The price of freedom is eternal maintenance."
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03-29-2006, 04:38 AM
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#7
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Rivet Master
Currently Looking...
St. Catharines
, South Western Ontario
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,367
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Fuel saving, easy tow, aerodynamic shape
Aluminum shell
What's inside the shell
2 out of three ain't bad
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03-29-2006, 04:54 AM
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#8
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Rivet Master
1984 31' Excella
Broken Arrow
, Oklahoma
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 673
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Questionable Airstream Engineering
As I recall the original post war work crew was laid off aviation production people(built fighters/bombers). You all seem unhappy about the lack of room on these units, but to any one that has had anything to do with NAVAL Carrier Aircraft, the room to work in these airstreams isn't too bad. At least you can almost see what you are supposed to be working on.
Beginner
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03-29-2006, 05:52 AM
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#9
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Rivet Master
Commercial Member
Vintage Kin Owner
Naples
, Florida
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 7,508
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I just had to chime in on this one......
It has been my observation that almost NO ONE engineers an RV from a service perspective. Engineers (and I have a Masters in Engineering) design these units and fit components in where ever they can after the 'designers' create what they feel is the most pleasing, marketable floor plan.
I've seen things that would have taken 20 minutes to repair/replace instead of 3 hours if someone had given it a little thought or had actually had to DO a repair first before designing the unit.
There lies the crux of the problem!! The folks who design these rarely if ever even use one, forget about actually having worked on one. RV's and cramped spaces, crammed in components and stupid design are just part of the business. That's why it's so great to see folks designing and outfitting their toasters in they way they see best!
__________________
lewster
Solar Tech Energy Systems, Inc.
Victron Solar Components and Inverters, Zamp Solar Panels, LiFeBlue and Battle Born Lithium Batteries, Lifeline AGM Batteries
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03-29-2006, 07:30 AM
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#10
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Remember, Safety Third
1973 27' Overlander
Catfish Corners
, Georgia
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 5,720
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Maybe its just me
I too, have seen many of the problems you mention. But I just assumed it was the nature of the beast for the most part. This is our first RV of any kind so I just naturally assumed that when you try to shoehorn a home into roughly 200 square feet, things get tight.
I suppose I just look at things a bit differently. For example, the five Fords in my driveway have a combined total of just under 650,000 miles on them and an average age of almost 8 years. They have served my family well and I expect the 33 year old Airstream will too, once I've finished rebuilding it.
Just my 2 cents.
Jim
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03-29-2006, 07:35 AM
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#11
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Patriotic
1973 23' Safari
North of Boston
, Massachusetts
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 4,546
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beginner
As I recall the original post war work crew was laid off aviation production people(built fighters/bombers). You all seem unhappy about the lack of room on these units, but to any one that has had anything to do with NAVAL Carrier Aircraft, the room to work in these airstreams isn't too bad. At least you can almost see what you are supposed to be working on.
Beginner
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all airplanes are like that, and for the same reason we have the problem w/ these trailers: the exterior shape is the "prime directive". Its all about the shape; if it wasn't shaped that way, it wouldn't fly...or it wouldn't be an "airstream" trailer.
My FIL talks about his time in the service as an aircraft mechanic...he was the lucky guy that got to do many of these maintenance items that no one else could do, because he was the skinniest one in the group.
same problem exists today on all airplanes, from small general aviation craft to big commercial birds...systems and components are stuffed in where they can be stuffed; future access is a secondary consideration.
__________________
Air:291
Wbcci: 3752
'73 Safari 23'
'00 Dodge Ram 1500 4x4 QC
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03-29-2006, 07:36 AM
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#12
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Naysayer
1968 24' Tradewind
Russellville
, earth
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 4,961
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim & Susan
I too, have seen many of the problems you mention. But I just assumed it was the nature of the beast for the most part. This is our first RV of any kind so I just naturally assumed that when you try to shoehorn a home into roughly 200 square feet, things get tight....
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I have to agree with Jim, doesn't make working on the dabblame thing any easier though.
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03-29-2006, 07:56 AM
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#13
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Rivet Master
1976 31' Sovereign
Currently Looking...
Chandler
, Oklahoma
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,770
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I have tried to get Camping World to work on my 78 Argosy on several occasions. They were always going to charge me EXTRA because it was an Airstream. For a new AC unit they wanted $750.00 to fabraicate a new pan because it was an old Airstream. I found an RV place that sold me a Carrier that didn't need the "pan" and installed it all for less than Camping World wanted for their "pan". Camping World does not sell Carrier. I know there isn't much room in these units, but when you have something that last and works for 30+ years, maybe that's not the important thing.
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03-29-2006, 08:25 AM
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#14
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3 Rivet Member
Currently Looking...
2005 22' Interstate
Afton
, Virginia
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 226
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Airstream is just about the same as everything else in the world. The guys who design and engineer our products don't have to think about fixing them. I owned a Kenskill travel trailer in the '60's, and I know it was built to be used a short time and passed on, but little thought was given to maintenance. I appreciate the frustration of replacing a 30 year-old item, but think about someone 30 years from now who tries to fix one of these new automobiles!
regards
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03-29-2006, 08:50 AM
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#15
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Rivet Master
1959 26' Overlander
Putnam
, Connecticut
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 3,064
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Just for fun draw your AS floor and redesign it. Put the stuff where you want it. You will find that every design decision you make is a compromise. If you want convenience for utilities you give up storage. Since for us its an alternative to a tent, not a house, remember it's camping, I put a premium on self contained comfort over storage in the layout of own 59. But when you go to a trailer show what you hear all the women staying in the trailers is..... Oh look how much storage it has.... It's the "there are never enough closets" thing on wheels. It's what sells trailers.
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03-29-2006, 12:27 PM
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#16
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Rivet Master
1966 26' Overlander
Woodstock
, Georgia
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 8,525
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Recently someone was visiting who had a friend with a new Winnebago. His remark when seeing the insdie of my Airstream was how much bettr built and more "solid" it appeared than the new 150K Winnie..
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03-29-2006, 12:50 PM
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#17
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Rivet Master
1978 31' Sovereign
Texas Airstream Harbor
, Zavalla, in the Deep East Texas Piney Woods on Lake Sam Rayburn
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,435
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Cardboardn'staples
Quote:
Originally Posted by ALANSD
Recently someone was visiting who had a friend with a new Winnebago. His remark when seeing the insdie of my Airstream was how much bettr built and more "solid" it appeared than the new 150K Winnie..
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Heeere in Texxasss we refer to SOB construction techniques as "cardboard and staples".
Certain exceptions, of course.
__________________
Dennis
"Suck it up, spend the bucks, do it right the first time."
WBCCI # 1113
AirForums #1737
Trailer '78 31' Sovereign
Living Large at an Airstream Park on the Largest Lake Totally Contained in Texas
Texas Airstream Harbor, Inc.
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03-29-2006, 07:49 PM
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#18
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4 Rivet Member
2004 25' Safari
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 424
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It's not just A/S trailers
You think A/S trailers are badly designed!! I worked 30+ years for a natural gas utility and you wouldn't believe some of the places where they designed for furnaces, water heaters, etc to be installed. Try working on an outside roof top heating unit at 2 in the morning with a wind chill that will make brass monkeys go inside and you'll see what I mean. All to save a few precious inside square feet. Engineers never have to repair items where they designed them to be placed, be it cars,trailers, etc. If they did, they would make some quick changes. For what we the want our A/S trailers for, I'm impressed with the designs. Functional and practital (sp).
Best,
__________________
Home of the Wayward Wind
Bogfrog & Mr. Turbo
If in life you stumble, make it part of the dance
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03-29-2006, 08:21 PM
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#19
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Rivet Master
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,486
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WayWard Wind
You think A/S trailers are badly designed!! I worked 30+ years for a natural gas utility and you wouldn't believe some of the places where they designed for furnaces, water heaters, etc to be installed... Engineers never have to repair items where they designed them to be placed,....
Best,
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Actually, it is the architect who takes the blame here. The engineer just works our a way to make the equipment function in the space which he is allotted. It is the architect who, for example, decides he wants live plants in boxes 30 feet up the walls of an atrium - with can ceiling lights above that, naturally.
On the one topic of the furnace under the stove, I find that quite a good use of space. I've had the unit in and out a couple of times and did not think it to be a problem at all - 10 minutes in or out, max. On the other hand, the water heater placement referenced above is, I think, a clever idea gone wrong. I mean, the space is there, and there is really nothing else that could make good use of it, but boy-oh-boy is it a pain to get at.
Mark
__________________
'85 Sovereign, 25'
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