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Old 02-17-2007, 09:09 AM   #29
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Whether Mr. Heater is a catalytic heater or not (it isn't) is beside the point. Both give off carbon dioxide which can make you sick.

If you want to trust your life to an oxygen depletion sensor go ahead. More food for the rest of us.
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Old 02-17-2007, 01:00 PM   #30
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Any more detail you would like to share?

Quote:
Originally Posted by markdoane
Whether Mr. Heater is a catalytic heater or not (it isn't) is beside the point. Both give off carbon dioxide which can make you sick.

If you want to trust your life to an oxygen depletion sensor go ahead. More food for the rest of us.
Geez, that last thought was kinda grim; where's the "death smiley" when you need it?

Does carbon dioxide (CO2) make one sick? I thought it just suffocated the camper as opposed to poisoning him/her to death like carbon monoxide (CO) does.

Okay, enough of my "humor". If Mr. Heater is not a catalytic heater, then how does it accomplish it's goal of being rated for indoor use? I thought the use of a catalyst was the only way to accomplish that goal.

Tom
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Old 02-17-2007, 01:23 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck
a)it IS a catalytic heater
b) there is no undue "risk" of asphixiation when using them in an RV..
which 'mr heater' model is catalytic? come on chuck, which one?

all of the models i've seen/read about are radiant heaters. not the same thing by a long shot. perhaps they have a new cat model?

according to the mr heater website NONE of their current models are approved for...

1. primary heat source
2. rv use....

none.


while most of us are remotely aware of carbon monoxide poisoning...

carbon dioxide isn't not a harmless gas.

human co2 levels are tightly controlled by the respirator/metabolic/renal pathways.

excess exposure to co2 that leads to increased blood levels of co2...

produce a cascade of metabolic and respiratory and renal responses and can become dangerous.

co2 blood levels are a BIG deal.

it is true environmental co2 in open spaces generally isn't harmful but in a confined space (like an rv) excess co2 CAN be dangerous.

my point is unless you actually understand how various gases affect us or how these heaters really work...

be careful giving advice...

personal user experience isn't the same as 'advice to others'...

cheers
2air'
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Old 02-17-2007, 01:31 PM   #32
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I can't discuss it as knowlegeably as 2air, but I got the information from a Canadian website.

Oxygen Depletion
Oxygen deficiency in itself is not as serious a problem in poorly ventilated quarters as high CO2 concentration, which can cause unconsciousness or death before a corresponding oxygen deficiency would have serious physiological effects. Oxygen concentration may drop from the normal 21 per cent to as low as 15 per cent before it causes even a sense of fatigue.

Carbon Dioxide
Early symptoms of CO2 poisoning are headache, nausea, sweating and tremor. Increase in CO2 concentration affects the respiratory process, particularly if accompanied by oxygen depletion. The depth and frequency of breathing increase until at 3 per cent concentration a normal person breathes at double the usual rate and at 5 per cent breathing is extremely labored. At 7 to 9 per cent the individual pants violently and becomes unconscious in about 15 min.

Carbon Monoxide
Symptoms of CO poisoning include impaired vision, headache and nausea. A concentration above 400 ppm produces coma and death. The effects depend on concentration, depth and rate of respiration, duration of exposure, and, to some extent, smoking habits. Cigarette smoking may subject the lungs to a CO concentration of about 475 ppm for 6 min per cigarette; heavy smokers may have significant impairment of night vision. Heavy exertion, especially at high air temperatures or high elevations will increase the effects of CO. Information on the combined effects of two or more gases is scarce, although there appears to be general agreement that effects are additive to some degree.
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Old 02-17-2007, 01:59 PM   #33
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Consider the source

Quote:
Originally Posted by markdoane
I can't discuss it as knowlegeably as 2air, but I got the information from a Canadian website.
That may be well & good Mr. Doane, but I just read something somewhere else that could question the veracity of your source:

Quote:
Originally Posted by (Mr.) Tin Hut
...Now I don't have anything against Canada, as a matter of fact the inventor of the M1 Garrand rifle was Canadian and of course Pamela Anderson is Canadian (although I believe some parts were made in California)...
I had not thought about it till now, but is carbon whatever the same in Canada as it is over here?

Tom
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Old 02-17-2007, 02:10 PM   #34
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Quote:
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I had not thought about it till now, but is carbon whatever the same in Canada as it is over here?
Not at all. Dioxyde de Carbone in Canada can be sequestered in the great coniferous forests and sold for credit to first world industrialized nations.
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Old 02-17-2007, 02:15 PM   #35
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That's French ain't et?

Quote:
Originally Posted by markdoane
Not at all. Dioxyde de Carbone in Canada can be sequestered in the great coniferous forests and sold for credit to first world industrialized nations.
Wow!

I was hoping you would use some of those big words I'd seen in your other posts.

Tom
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Old 02-17-2007, 11:50 PM   #36
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Quote:
according to the mr heater website NONE of their current models are approved for...

1. primary heat source
2. rv use....

none.
From the Mr. Heater website:


Model MH18B - BIG BuddyTM Indoor Safe Propane Heater
The latest evolution in powerful and portable heat is here! BIG Buddy from Enerco/Mr. Heater now takes portable heat to another level --- 18,000 BTU/HR with the capacity to heat up to 400 square feet of space for up to 220 hours (on low position).

BIG Buddy's Dual-Heating System (DHS) combines radiant heat comfort with convection heat airflow for maximum heating efficiency.

Multi-position heat settings of 4,000, 9,000 and 18,000 BTU/HR control comfort level. Built-in oxygen shutoff sensor and tip-over switch ensures indoor safe operation (adequate ventilation must be provided; see operating instructions).

Certified by CSA International (American Gas Association), Mr. Heater's Big Buddy Indoor Safe Portable Heater features a low oxygen safety shutoff pilot to provide safe, reliable propane heat indoors. (Note: Big Buddy is presently not available in Canada).
(End of quote from website info)

While it's true that RVs are not specifically mentioned, they ARE rated for indoor use. I'm not yet convinced that my "RV indoors" is different than my "house indoors".

Dave
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Old 02-18-2007, 12:31 AM   #37
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hi dave

it looks like a fine product...

this model is NOT however a catalytic heater...

it is a radiant propane heater with a convection/fan...

take a look at the owners manual/operating instructions...

this heater requires a fresh air source and adequate exhaust ventilation.

"When used without adequate combustion and ventilation air,
this heater may give off excessive CARBON MONOXIDE, an odorless, poisonous gas."


http://www.mrheater.com/upload/newsl...0MH18B_eng.pdf

per the manual it requires an open window AND an open ceiling vent.

i utilized a platinum catalytic heater for 20 years in my first airstream.
while cat heaters require a fresh air (O2) source they don't require exhaust ventilation.
water and co2 are the primary combustion products from cat heaters.

using a cat heater will greatly increase the moisture (condensation) inside the trailer.
they are nice for cutting the morning chill or
extending battery life while boondocking, because the furnace cycles less.

so would you go to sleep in your house or trailer with mr heater running?

my major concern here is confusing catalytic heaters with other things.
mr heaters are 'other things'...

cheers
2air'
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Old 02-18-2007, 08:47 AM   #38
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Ok, OK....I was wrong!!!

NOT catalytic. I stand corrected.

but they say on their website:


FOR RECREATIONAL AND COMMERCIAL USE:
• Tents
• Cabins
• Garage/Workshops
• Enclosed Porches
• Barns
• Ice Fishing Shanties
• Truck Caps
• Campers
• RVs/Mobile Homes/Trailers
• Storage & Tool Sheds
• Camp Buildings
• Construction Trailers
• Patios/Enclosures
• Picnic Shelters
• Work Enclosures
• Hunting Blinds
• Camp Shelters
• Tailgate Parties
• Outdoor Event Booths
• Horse Trailers

So when you say "not approved"....who "approves" of these things?

They seem to toss the terms "infrared" and "radiant" around quite a bit, too, which is probably at least part of my confusion. catalytics give off radiant infrared energy, too.

I didn't think there was any way to get heat from gas w/o CO unless there was a catalyst in there somewhere altering the reaction. That still may be so, but these can give heat with "just a little" co....how much is too much?

I didn't say anything about CO2; I know its an issue in a space ship. didn't think think anything else (especially our airstreams) was air-tight enough to pose such a threat. I think most people are concerned w/ CO and O2 (or lack thereof).
My point was simply that there are deadly risks with ANY heater (including electric ones) and that one must be mindful when using any of them. Forced hot air furnaces can fill your rv with CO, too, because they can break. and yeah, with any source of heat, we DO have to entrust our lives with some cheap "detector"...O2, CO, or smoke.
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Old 02-18-2007, 09:28 AM   #39
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2Air,
I had a feeling even as I posted last night that you may be right, thanks for digging a little deeper than I did. It's interesting (misleading) that in none of the sales info that I looked at do they say anything about CO. They do tout how great they are for indoor use as mentioned in my post above.
I'm used to having to have ventilation when using a catalytic heater, my intsructions for it said always keep windows cracked. Maybe THEY begin to produce CO under low O2 conditions as well? It would make sense as a byproduct of incomplete combustion.
Hmm, I may have to take another look at this issue. Thanks for the post.
Dave
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Old 02-18-2007, 05:24 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck
NOT catalytic. I stand corrected..
ok, good thinking chuck...

NOW that we have saved thousands of readers from near death encounters...

and the dangers of no O2, CO and CO2...

back to soildermedics original question...

it seems he is doing a floor up/down restoration. what are his options for a sensible heating setup?

there are now ac/dc tank heater/pads that could keep the tanks thawed, so space heating options are possible.

are those of you doing the full monty leavng OUT the furnace?

cheers
2air'
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Old 02-20-2007, 07:54 AM   #41
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Pic, just get the adapter hose that goes to a 20lb tank.....it pays for itself(about 20bucks) real fast. We have been using the Mr Buddy for years that way(Yes...always in a ventilated situation) and have no complaints. Bass Pro has them...
RD
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Old 02-20-2007, 09:18 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2airishuman
NOW that we have saved thousands of readers from near death encounters...

and the dangers of no O2, CO and CO2...
semi-off topic??: under what "real world" scenarios might someone become exposed to dangerous levels of CO2?
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2airishuman
are those of you doing the full monty leavng OUT the furnace?
some do. Its a "high-cost" option, in more ways than one...the costs being more apparent in smaller and/or older units.

-costs alot of $$$ to buy
-uses a lot of electricity...(so much so, that its not practical to use when boondocking...so if you're going to need shore power anyway, why not use IT, and the $20/6" cube ceramic heater to do the same thing, burning the campground owner's electricity instead of YOUR propane? )
-takes up 50% of the galley space

the bigger/newer the trailer is, the less impact these "negatives" have...

many older trailers (mine, for example) have no grey tank, and the black is inside, ON the floor. fresh tank is under the floor, but the space is open to the living area, and the factory didn't provide ducted heat to it, anyway. So the only real advantage to a furnace is that its "convenient", and more or less "toddler proof".
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