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Old 12-21-2010, 04:18 PM   #113
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Here's what I've done with the insulation. I used 1/2" thick foil-faced polyisocyanate foam, $12 a 4x8 sheet at the lumber yard. It cuts with a kitchen knife. I pieced one part at the head of each bed, over the rear exterior compartment, and one part under the drawer in the nightstand, and one part under each bed at the top of the side exterior compartments. These last pieces are exposed from the interior of the compartments.

For now they're all just sitting there but I'll fasten them in place with adhesive at some point.
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Old 12-21-2010, 05:39 PM   #114
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I blocked off half of one of the front heat outlets temporarily with some foam to take measurements. I have some 1/4" flame retardant foam sheeting on order. When it arrives I'm going to wrap into a cylindrical shape and put inside the very short section of ducts coming forward from the furnace, both for noise control and to reduce the airflow by an equivalent amount.

I'll copy my earlier observations from upthread, and add the difference between the gaucho and the other locations in brackets.



Tonight it is a little cooler, around 11 degrees. The measurements now:

Gaucho 68
Dinette 66 [-2]
Head 65 [-3]
Bed 59 [-9]

The cold weather makes this a somewhat more demanding test, and I estimate a 5% reduction in the bracketed values if I were to retest in 15 degree conditions.

I'm pleased with the improvement in the head. The temperature measured at the bed, while better, is still a disappointment.
With the insulation in place, and an outside temperature of 20 degrees, I measured:

Gaucho 70
Dinette 68 [-2]
Head 68 [-2]
Bed 62 [-8]

I conclude that the insulation made no measurable difference, because the slightly improved values are explained by the higher outside temperature.

We'll see what the next set of duct changes do.
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Old 12-21-2010, 08:43 PM   #115
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Try putting the sheet in with the reflective surface facing the void, not the mounting surface. Also, I suspect more heat escapes through the sides of the boxes than the tops, which have a well insulating mattress on them.

I would arrange it so the sheet lined the wall under the bed, shiny side in, and lined the inside of the wooden edge facing into the bedroom, so you added two insulated radiant barrier sheaths between the outer wall and the wood of the cabinet.

One interesting bit of research on a cold night would be to use an IR thermometer and measure the temperatures of all interior and exterior surfaces of the trailer and create a heat dissipation map.

Anyone willing?
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Old 12-21-2010, 09:39 PM   #116
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Try putting the sheet in with the reflective surface facing the void, not the mounting surface. Also, I suspect more heat escapes through the sides of the boxes than the tops, which have a well insulating mattress on them.

I would arrange it so the sheet lined the wall under the bed, shiny side in, and lined the inside of the wooden edge facing into the bedroom, so you added two insulated radiant barrier sheaths between the outer wall and the wood of the cabinet.

One interesting bit of research on a cold night would be to use an IR thermometer and measure the temperatures of all interior and exterior surfaces of the trailer and create a heat dissipation map.

Anyone willing?
I've done that and not found it particularly illuminating. The whole shell is lossy.
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Old 12-21-2010, 09:42 PM   #117
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Well, the outside of the shell won't have hotspots because aluminum has a very high conductance and a very low specific heat capacity. However, on the inside, doing this shows where the steepest and shallowest temperature gradients is, and I can draw a few conclusions from that.
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Old 12-21-2010, 09:48 PM   #118
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Well, gang, I was out in the trailer fussing with ducts and weaving the hard duct in there. It can be done but as I fussed I became increasingly convinced that it's a fool's errand -- there are too many twists and turns and I just don't think it will help that much.

However I did disassemble the coat closet further. I'll post pictures later but the classic has three pieces of interior, uh, trim, I guess, in the coat closet. There's an L-shaped plywood piece (two pieces screwed together with some sort of edge molding) that covers the back of the shower and hides the pipes and valve. Then there are two odd shaped plywood pieces that form the false floor, covered with indoor-outdoor carpeting.

It's not a cleanly designed or highly engineered arrangement though I guess it can be said that it retains as much of the interior closet volume as possible.

By removing all of this and not just the lift-out false floor piece that you're supposed to pull up to get to the water pump, I can see that there is in fact room for a second 4" duct to the bedroom, provided that all this interior closet "trim" is reworked and the false floor raised somewhat, probably about six inches or so. It may be necessary or desirable to step it somewhat and recover some of that.

Now I can see clearly behind the shower enclosure to the bulkhead wall between the bedroom and the shower, and so should be able to proceed with my "ship in a bottle" holecutting in the bulkhead without hitting anything.
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Old 12-21-2010, 11:07 PM   #119
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Jammer, Give us Classic owners a glimpse of what is under the shower....pics? How is the shower stall supported etc.
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Old 12-22-2010, 12:39 PM   #120
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Duct routing

Jammer,

Take a look at this.

My trailer is in storage....maybe you can verify. I thought the 2" duct in the closet ran to the fresh water tank area. This diagram shows that one going to Black/gray and the other 2" duct runs from up front, through the belly pan and attaches to fresh water tank pan.

Can you see the termination point of the 2" duct in the closet?30 heat.pdf
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Old 12-22-2010, 01:24 PM   #121
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That drawing doesn't match my trailer on a number of counts, but in answer to your question, yes, the 2" duct in the closet on my trailer ran to the curbside end of the fresh water tank.

I've attached some photos with the trim removed. I was, after all, able to remove the carpeted box between the bed and the bulkhead, and should have no trouble cutting a hole for another duct. I'm off to the home store to get a suitable hole saw, and to check into duct alternatives. I may Y together the two 4" ducts and have a single 6" register.
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Old 12-22-2010, 01:27 PM   #122
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The 2" duct in the photo above is the one I added and which I have since pulled out.

The new route I plan for the ductwork goes above the 2" ABS pipe carrying the kitchen sink drainage, rather than below it. This will provide room for two ducts and will eliminate the need to flatten the ducts where they go under the pipe.
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Old 12-22-2010, 01:37 PM   #123
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1. You can also use the opportunity to turn that dead space in the last pic into something useful. A cubbyhole, mini-wine rack, laptop charger/holder, photo album holder or HEPA air filter could go in there!

2. I'm mortally offended by Airstream's choices of materials in the last photo. It's massively over-engineered and heavy. I'm convinced they could have built something as strong with less than half the weight.
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Old 12-22-2010, 01:49 PM   #124
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.............................................

2. I'm mortally offended by Airstream's choices of materials in the last photo. It's massively over-engineered and heavy. I'm convinced they could have built something as strong with less than half the weight.
Since you were mortally offended, my condolences to your loved ones.

If you somehow miraculously came back to life:

That type of heavy duty construction is one of the reasons some of us (me included) are attracted to the Classic models.

Regards,

Ken
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Old 12-22-2010, 03:50 PM   #125
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*grins* Us Brits, we do things to the English language that would never fly here.

The Classics are very sturdily built, but also very heavy. It's possible to build just as sturdily with about half the weight just by using better materials choices and doing more work to design, measure, cut, assemble and fit.

I'm sure the classics will last a very long time, but wonder how much longer they would last if they weighed 1,000 lbs less.

If Airstream were to bring out a lightweight range of 27-31 ft trailers, as light as they were in the mid-60s but with modern refinements and technology, they would sell VERY well.

Construction like you have should ALWAYS be an option, but other options should also be available.
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Old 12-22-2010, 11:09 PM   #126
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Hi, how did you finally remove the carpeted box? I believe you said earlier that it was stapled in place; I have removed my carpeted box and found it was held in place by four screws that were driven into the carpet and very hard to find. I may in the future build another box out of oak instead of carpet over plywood. If you are able to run two 4" ducts to the bedroom and eliminate one of the front ones, you could fill the hole with something similar to the porch light and use it for an entrance light.
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