A/C condensate running off the roof... NOT out of the drain tube

[A W Warn]

Another great write up.
Thanks!

PS:
When I was looking at the photos again I noticed the yellow Romex type NM wire that supplies power to the AC unit. I remembered in your earlier post you said the power supply was 14 ga solid wire. That is 12ga. (white sheathing is 14 ga, yellow 12 ga)

[Hiho Silver]

Originally Posted by rperrym

Is the condendate drain line accessable from the roof on ducted air conditioner units. Before I try to get on my roof I would like to hear from anyone who has taken the cover off and tried to access the lines from above. Nothing to access on the ducted units that I can see from the inside.

Rick

Didn't see a definite answer to this question. I too have water running across the roof, and not out the drain tube, on my ducted air a/c. I tried unclogging with a wire, but it wouldn't go up far enough, hit some sort of turn or other blockage about 2/3 of the way up the tube. I didn't want to try to force the wire any further, so I need to find the other side of the drain tube. Is it accessible from the inside of the trailer, or from the roof WITHOUT pulling the whole a/c unit ??
Anybody out there that has already done this, any help appreciated.

[A W Warn]

I have no experience doing this on an Airstream, since both of my trailers are old style.
But, I have worked on SOBs with ducted air. From what I have seen just looking at Airstreams ducted system, tells me that the bottom of the AC unit is accessed by removing the two air return grills/filters.
I'm sure I'll be reprimanded severely if I am wrong.

There are two styles of grilles. One is snap in, the other fastened with screws.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lesTVERZNNY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlejWZ8_uMg

[Hiho Silver]

Originally Posted by A W Warn

I have no experience doing this on an Airstream, since both of my trailers are old style.

But, I have worked on SOBs with ducted air. From what I have seen just looking at Airstreams ducted system, tells me that the bottom of the AC unit is accessed by removing the two air return grills/filters.

I'm sure I'll be reprimanded severely if I am wrong.



There are two styles of grilles. One is snap in, the other fastened with screws.

Thanks so much, I hope you’re correct. I will check from the inside in a day or two when I can access my Airstream. I’ll try to get a picture and report back.
I have someone coming to my trailer to install EasyStarts in my 2 a/c units in a couple of days and was thinking of the possibility of having to pull the whole unit to fix the drainage problem, while he is on my roof. Hopefully that will not be necessary, but was thinking of ordering gaskets and drainage cups just in case. First I will be pulling the air filter vents from inside the trailer and try to locate the drainage tube from the inside. Thx for any help
Sandy

[jmpgino]

After adding my own experience regarding this issue earlier in conversation, I think it is disgraceful that Airstream has allowed its quality control to seemingly disappear.
Their expansion of the factory would obviously cause issues initially but these hidden and damaging mistakes are totally unacceptable, when considering the price point at which the company projects its products.
I went on a tour of the factory in 2013 the day after purchasing our first unit. It was an impressive experience. Obviously something has gone wrong since then, either way the town is small and they are picking from a small pond to staff the place.
I will not be buying my third unit for a long time if they can not get some controls in place.
They read our comments on here and should take heed, as prospective first time buyers will think twice.

[sncnidaho]

..............sorry wrong thread.

[GammaDog]

Originally Posted by A W Warn

Another great write up.
Thanks!

PS:
When I was looking at the photos again I noticed the yellow Romex type NM wire that supplies power to the AC unit. I remembered in your earlier post you said the power supply was 14 ga solid wire. That is 12ga. (white sheathing is 14 ga, yellow 12 ga)

Thanks AWW, you are correct. That wire goes to a dedicated 20 amp breaker and therefore it must be 12, not 14 ga to properly carry the current that breaker will allow before tripping. In contrast to the larger, stranded conductor from the Dometic side, the solid conductor looked and felt smaller to me than it is.

[GammaDog]

Ok, campers, here's my final post and pics on the work over the weekend.

Let's start with the thing that started the whole project... the drain cups and gasket(s). After doing the inside work including removal of the retaining bolts, I went topside, laid out the moving blankets and rolled the turtle onto her side to get a look at her belly. Here's a pic that shows the original single gasket and the streetside drain cup with the tubing going through the gasket. You can tell that the cup was siting on the roof surface from the staining on its underside and on the roof. Neither cup seemed cracked or broken, but the mechanics of the original, single gasket installation by JC means that the tubing was flattened where it passed through the gasket and the cups created interference that prevented the gasket from compressing as intended by Dometic before the specified torque was reached on the retaining bolts.

Attachment 317117 ***After posting, I noticed the first three pics were not loaded. I'll put them in the following post***

Closeup
Attachment 317118

And the inside of that cup after the screws were removed. Note the dry residue on the bottom of the cup and similar residue around a portion of the rim. That suggests to me that this cup has overflowed, leaving the residue on the rim. Dometic says not to seal this cup to the bottom pan of the unit. Their rationale is that overflow should be allowed if the drain becomes blocked. Note also the black plastic projection through the hole in the bottom of the steel pan above the cup's mounting location. This is the hole in the bottom of the evaporator tray. When working properly (ha!) the condensate drips from the evaporator coil, into the plastic evaporator tray which is integral to the evaporator housing, through that hole, into the cup, through it's drain and into the tubing. What could go wrong? In a few pics you will see that same hole from above with the cup below.
Attachment 317119

Those of you who are following this thread closely (you know who you are!) may note that the 12 v wiring is attached in the pics above. I had not intended to cut and resplice those lines until I realized that the alternative was to cut the lower gasket. I would recommend labeling and cutting the 12 v connections as part of the interior disassembly before going on the roof. Also, I was concerned that having condensate dumping on the roof next to a gasket that was under- thickness and potentially insuffciently compressed might have allowed water to move under the gasket and flow between the trailer's inside and outside skin. I had seen no evidence of water at any seems inside or in the insulation behind recessed lights (which can be pulled for inspection) in the area of the AC. However, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. On my trailer, one side of the AC has kitchen cabinets, the other the wardrobe. Neither is easy to access and test for moisture at the floor level. Good news! The area of the roof under the single gasket was perfectly clean with a sharp line showing wher the single gasket did its job. I do not suspect there was any water infiltration.

As noted in the original post, I sliced a notch on each side of the existing gasket as Dometic specifies to make room for the tubing, cleaned the roof area with denatured alcohol, installed the new cups and drain lines with the tee, sealed the space between the gasket and tubing with Parbond, peeled the protective film from the sticky strips of the new Dometic gasket and stuck it to the existing gasket. I rolled the turtle carefully back in place, went below where I could lift the unit to do fine positioning without dragging it (seriously... if you are tall enough, or have a ladder and eat a good breakfast or take a nitroglycerine pill that is a one man job) and was ready to reassemble.

After all the interior work and repairs described yesterday (120v wiring, 12 v wiring, drain tubing, base plate installations) was complete, I had a working system. There was one thing that bugged me... was I sure that everything was good inside the evaporator area? After all, that's where condensate is produced and where it will leak from if the drain system isn't working properly.

Here's a pic from the roof level showing one of the two new cups sitting above the roof with a proper two gasket set behind it:



If you've never seen inside the beast, fasten your seatbelt and let's go for the tour! The fiberglass shell on my Penguin II is secured with four Phillips head screws. When the shell comes off, here's what you see:



That white mass on the right (front of the unit) is a styrofoam insulation cover over the evaporator section. It is friction fit and pops off easily (cut the low density foam strips first). Under that is the top half of the hard plastic case that seals the evaporator section.



The motor to the left in this pic has a shaft on each end. Both of those drive blowers. The blower in the open on the left of this pic (rear of the unit) circulates ambient air across the condenser coils to exhaust heat when the unit is operating in cooling mode. The blower for the evaporator section and the evaporator coil is under the black housing to the right in this pic. The cover can be removed by removing the five hex head screws around its edge and unsnapping the tabs that also line the perimeter. When removed you see:


That's the blower in back which exits air downward into the interior AC grille through the problematic duct discussed ad nauseum in yesterday's post. That air has been drawn up from the trailer through the two, wing shaped openings in the front of the unit. Those correspond precisely with the location and shape of the two pull-out filters on this model of the P II. Between the entry and exit the air passes through the evaporator coil where (during cooling operation) the warm, moist air is cooled and where our nemesis - condensation - is produced. Between the two return openings you can see the electric box and the 12 v wiring spliced in the open, inches from the coil which produces lots of water when running in the south in summer. Recall that the interior of my 120 v work box was wet when I opened it back in Chapter 1. Recall also that the exit ductwork of my blower was not secured and that condensation routinely flowed into the trailer. My belief is that escaping air from the blower circulated in odd ways through this housing including backflow that sprayed water on the work box and the area between the wing shaped return openings. From underneath, that area is a grey plastic plate about 3"x4" which can be removed... but those instructions are too long and complex to cover here. Note in this pick the new "wet location" workbox and soldered/capped/taped 12 v connections are visible in that center/forward space. One final point: if you look dirctly below the evaporator coil you will see the drain pan for condensate that is molded into the lower half of the evaporator section housing. At either side of that housing there is a hole. Below those holes are the infamous drain cups. For my final contribution... the last 1/4 teaspoon of knowledge I'll add to the brain trust... I present you with a closeup of one of those drain holes with the beautiful amber glow of Florida sunlight passing through the walls of a brand, spanking new Dometic Penguin II drain cup!


And that, ladies and gentlemen, is my story.

[GammaDog]

[Hiho Silver]

[QUOTE=A W Warn;2128704]I have no experience doing this on an Airstream, since both of my trailers are old style.
But, I have worked on SOBs with ducted air. From what I have seen just looking at Airstreams ducted system, tells me that the bottom of the AC unit is accessed by removing the two air return grills/filters.
I'm sure I'll be reprimanded severely if I am wrong.

You are absolutely correct. I took this picture yesterday.



I blew air thru the discharge tube, and then I was able see a little water dripping out where it was intended and not on the roof. (My main a/c seems to have more water dripping.) I tried running a piece of wire thru the drain line, but couldn't get it to go all the way thru. Hopefully it is not because of a pinch in the line. Seems to be blocked where the drain line has to turn to go down the side of the trailer, maybe just a fitting like a 90 to change direction of the drain tube?? I couldn't stay long enough to see if it is really going to work now, if the opening is now large enough to keep the water off the roof.

Here is a picture of the cups which appear to be barely off the roof.


Not sure by this view if they used one or two gaskets for the install. I had this a/c replaced under warranty at JC, hopefully they did it correctly. I will have more time in a few days to let the a/c run longer and see if the opening is now large enough to handle the water without leaking on the roof.

Anybody else try to run a wire thru the discharge hose, and if so, where you able to run it all the way thru??

[RFP]

Originally Posted by Hiho Silver

< snip >

Not sure by this view if they used one or two gaskets for the install. I had this a/c replaced under warranty at JC, hopefully they did it correctly. I will have more time in a few days to let the a/c run longer and see if the opening is now large enough to handle the water without leaking on the roof.

Anybody else try to run a wire thru the discharge hose, and if so, where you able to run it all the way thru??

This is an improper 'one gasket' installation... and, NO, it's not a surprise

[GMFL]

Drain cups should be up off roof. See my two gasket install.

[Hiho Silver]

Originally Posted by RFP

This is an improper 'one gasket' installation... and, NO, it's not a surprise

Has anybody tried to contact Airstream about the 1 gasket install and problems associated with not using the 2 gasket install like Dometic specifies?
Sounds like a warranty issue to me, although mine is no longer under warranty, just thinking it should still be repaired at no charge by Airstream.

[AirstreamInc]

Hi All,

If you need assistance, please send us a direct message with your contact information and the last 6 digits of your VIN so we can share it with our Customer Service and Technical Support team.

You can also reach Airstream Customer Service and Technical Support at customer_support@airstream.com

Thank you.

[Hiho Silver]

Originally Posted by RFP

This is an improper 'one gasket' installation... and, NO, it's not a surprise

So I just called Airstream. They informed me that they still use a one gasket install. They said Dometic has made a special gasket for them that is pre-notched for the drain tube, and that is what they use on all the installs. They said the 2 gasket install was sort of "old school" and not needed.

I think the drain line from one of my drain cups is kinked or folded, as water is coming out of the drain cups secondary drain onto the roof, and I don't like it. Airstream suggested that when we pull the unit for an inspection, that if the hose is flattened that they would insert a smaller hose inside the existing hose to eliminate the problem. Hopefully this will fix my problem..

[RFP]

Originally Posted by Hiho Silver

So I just called Airstream. They informed me that they still use a one gasket install. They said Dometic has made a special gasket for them that is pre-notched for the drain tube, and that is what they use on all the installs. They said the 2 gasket install was sort of "old school" and not needed.
< snip >

This is pure moose poop. 'Old school," my foot.

Dometic may, indeed, provide a 'special' gasket for Airstream, but I guarantee you that the factory supplied gasket that I removed when I had the air conditioner installed correctly was IDENTICAL to each of the new ones that I got from Dometic. 'Pre-notched?" Big deal. With one gasket, the drip cups are [likely] in intimate contact with the roof and that ain't good folks.

By the way, the gasket in question is factory pre-installed by Dometic. So, now we are to believe that Dometic puts a pre-notched gasket on those units that go to Airstream. Could be, but this whole answer just sounds fishy (now, there's an old school term, for sure!). I'm just not buying this special-gasket-one-gasket-only story.

[GammaDog]

HiHo: I'm sure Airstream made a conscious choice for a single gasket installation while Dometic recommends (and other RV manufacturers evidently use) two.

In my experience, when the bolts that secure the rooftop unit are torqued to the recommended 30-50 inch pounds a single gasket is compressed to the point that the cups contact the roof (some owners report cracked or broken cups which leak as a result although mine didn't crack) and the tubing from the cups can be flattened which restricts condensate flow. Those restrictions seem to be the point where algae builds up and eventually backup and overflow results.

The last thing I would do with a kinked tube that is restricted is to place a tube within the tube to restrict it further. I had several restrictions in the drain system as shipped from JC. I chose to eliminate the restrictions using the best approaches I could identify.

That said, if you notice the locations for the most frequent posters on this subject, we live in the humidity belt. Here in Vero Beach at 6:45 AM its 77 degrees and 90% humidity. It only gets worse from here. After I did the work described in excruciating detail earlier in this thread I saw for the first time an actual stream of water (not drops) coming from the drain tube one afternoon. You may not experience conditions that tax your AC and drainage the way we do in the south. Given that, the recommendations Airstream made and the techniques they use may work beautifully in Kansas. I don't think it would work as well here.

[Hiho Silver]

Originally Posted by GammaDog

HiHo: I'm sure Airstream made a conscious choice for a single gasket installation while Dometic recommends (and other RV manufacturers evidently use) two.

In my experience, when the bolts that secure the rooftop unit are torqued to the recommended 30-50 inch pounds a single gasket is compressed to the point that the cups contact the roof (some owners report cracked or broken cups which leak as a result although mine didn't crack) and the tubing from the cups can be flattened which restricts condensate flow. Those restrictions seem to be the point where algae builds up and eventually backup and overflow results.

The last thing I would do with a kinked tube that is restricted is to place a tube within the tube to restrict it further. I had several restrictions in the drain system as shipped from JC. I chose to eliminate the restrictions using the best approaches I could identify.

That said, if you notice the locations for the most frequent posters on this subject, we live in the humidity belt. Here in Vero Beach at 6:45 AM its 77 degrees and 90% humidity. It only gets worse from here. After I did the work described in excruciating detail earlier in this thread I saw for the first time an actual stream of water (not drops) coming from the drain tube one afternoon. You may not experience conditions that tax your AC and drainage the way we do in the south. Given that, the recommendations Airstream made and the techniques they use may work beautifully in Kansas. I don't think it would work as well here.

Thanks Gamma Dog, RFD, and all other contributors to this thread. I agree, great write-ups and pics that you posted. Yes, when informed of the special gasket by Airstream, I too thought and told the tech, so big deal, pre-notched, how is that going to help. He didn't really have a good answer. It's not like Florida here in Kansas, but it is very hot and humid here.
So you don't think the tube within the tube is a good idea, bummer, I thought it sounded good. Can't wait to see what we find when we pull the a/c unit this weekend for an inspection.

[RFP]

Originally Posted by Hiho Silver

< snip >Yes, when informed of the special gasket by Airstream, I too thought and told the tech, so big deal, pre-notched, how is that going to help. He didn't really have a good answer. < snip >

The "tech" you talked to was either just making up stuff, or was misinformed by his/her boss. Either way, the "tech" was, and is, wrong.

Here's a brief e-mail exchange I had with Dometic... Case closed.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert XXXXX
Thu, Jul 19, 7:33 PM (14 hours ago)
Good day, Please tell me if Dometic still recommends using the 'double gaskets' when installing the DRIP CUPS (condensate drain) on a Penguin II 13,500 BTU heat

CustomerSupportCenter
10:13 AM (14 minutes ago)
to Robert

Robert,



Thank you for contacting Dometic. Yes, we do still recommend using double gaskets.



Jon



CustomerSupportCenter

Phone (800)544-4881
customersupportcenter@dometic.com

Dometic North America

dometic.com




NOTICE: This email and any attachments are for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by reply email and destroy the original message.

[GammaDog]

HiHo: Do you know where the kink in your drain is? I had one confirmed and two more suspected. The confirmed was where the single 1/2" clear plastic line between the tee fitting and the wheel well exited the 14" square frame that forms the hole in the roof. Under no circumstance would I have attempted to fix that with a sleeve within the tube. It probably would have kinked as well. I took the easy route and that was to extend the single tube at the tee by an inch or two to relieve the strain that caused the kink.

The other two areas that I believe were kinked (or maybe "compressed" or "piniched" would be better terms) were where the tubes from each cup passed through the gasket. I still think the additional gasket is the way to go (Dometic suggests cutting 3/4" of the upper gasket on each side to accommodate the tubes. The factory Airstream gasket on my trailer was not cut through, it had been grooved.) If you really, really wanted to sleeve those two sections I would consider a 2" length of either brass or stainless tubing. I would not use smaller clear plastic tubing within the 1/2" clear plastic for two reasons: 1. The sleeve would compress as easily as the factory material and 2. Clear plastic tubing is relatively thick walled. A metal tubing sleeve would leave a much larger opening than plastic.