Traveling while refrigerator is running on propane

[J. Morgan]

My challenge is for anyone to find any news story anywhere where a person lost his life or was injured because a person left his propane refrigerator on while driving.

A study of this subject will bring something to light, and what that is, the fuel in the tow vehicle is 10,000 times the threat as a couple of bottles of propane hanging on the front of a trailer.

[Ted S.]

Life is too short to keep turning the propane off.

[DavidsonOverlander]

Originally Posted by Len n Jeanne

Out of curiosity I googled "legal drive RV with propane turned on" and came up with the following:

http://www.drivesmartbc.ca/rvs/operating-rvs-propane Apparently it is not legal in British Columbia to drive with your propane on, although the fact that the car ferry staff routinely ask you it it's turned off before you board suggests that if this actually is the law, it's not enforced on BC's open roads.

Note that Drive Smart BC is not a government site, and if you navigate to the Transport Canada regulation to which it refers (Section 5.1(3) Transportation of Dangerous Goods Regulations) it states that 5.13 has been repealed. I don't see anything else in the TC regulations about driving with propane appliances on.

Transport Canada does mention propane and RVs here, but still nothing about using appliances while driving.

Drive Smart also uses the Canadian Propane Association site as a reference, but I can't find anything on that site about driving with propane on either.

The CANADA SAFETY COUNCIL has pages on both RVs and Propane, but neither mentions turning tanks off while driving.

Even this pamphlet from the Office of the Fire Commissioner of Manitoba doesn't mention driving with propane appliances on, although it does cover other aspects of propane safety.

So there's still no evidence that it's illegal to travel with propane on anywhere other than tunnels, ferries, etc.

I did find one warning on an official site (Ontario Association of Fire Chiefs):

"Driving with propane on can add to the danger if you are involved in an accident or have a fire. Shut off the propane at the tank and turn off all propane-powered appliances while driving. Operate your refrigerator on 12v battery power or simply leave it turned off. Most refrigerators will keep food cold or frozen for several hours, even when turned off."

[uncle_bob]

Hi

Well, one thing I *do* have experience with is fridges after you loose power. The idea that they will keep things properly cold for > 4 hours .... not so much. That might be true at low temperatures. It might be true for a fridge packed full of heavy stuff. For a hot day and a lightly loaded fridge, an hour might be pushing it.

Before you start talking about putting a couple hundred pounds of stuff in the fridge .... running steel cables around it to keep the door closed - not an option ....

Bob

[Rfriebele]

I see the need for a study! It's what I used to do so it'll be a fun project for me and may be useful for others new to the AS life. I'll post results upon completion. I'll charge the fridge, record temps over time in ambient conditions with it running & without during travel & then again when ambient conditions are tropical...if this has been done, I'd sure like to know. My inquisitive nature is on overdrive and even though this issue is IMO, a personal preference, it's made me question the efficient use of propane....someone requested data, well, say no more!

[Len n Jeanne]

Originally Posted by J. Morgan

My challenge is for anyone to find any news story anywhere where a person lost his life or was injured because a person left his propane refrigerator on while driving.

A study of this subject will bring something to light, and what that is, the fuel in the tow vehicle is 10,000 times the threat as a couple of bottles of propane hanging on the front of a trailer.

http://ferriesbc.proboards.com/threa...-2000-incident

Note that all cars on this ferry are parked in an open-air deck. Two children were injured. The fault was a leaky propane bottle, which could happen driving or stationary.

http://www.fraserway.com/discover/bl...-blow-a-gasket

I did some googling, and it seems that RV propane tank fires are actually pretty common, but normally when the RV is stationary.

http://www.automotivedefects.com/rv-...osion-lawsuit/

It doesn't look like anyone will change their minds here, but we just don't see the need to drive with the propane on when there are effective and easy ways to keep food frozen and cold without it. We save a little on the propane and that's a good thing, too.

[Len n Jeanne]

Originally Posted by uncle_bob

Hi

Well, one thing I *do* have experience with is fridges after you loose power. The idea that they will keep things properly cold for > 4 hours .... not so much. That might be true at low temperatures. It might be true for a fridge packed full of heavy stuff. For a hot day and a lightly loaded fridge, an hour might be pushing it.

Before you start talking about putting a couple hundred pounds of stuff in the fridge .... running steel cables around it to keep the door closed - not an option ....

Bob

OK, so first make sure the fridge latch is functional, pre-trip.

Again-- our protocol on day one is to:

(a) have the food cold or frozen to begin with while loading the fridge/freezer.

(b) put some frozen pacs (we use the blue gel pacs designed for picnic coolers) or frozen sturdy (like backpacking nalgene) water bottles in the freezer and/or around the food.

At least with a newer fridge, it's very well insulated. Don't leave the door open more than necessary.

(c) In the evening when stationary, turn on the fridge and re-freeze your cold pacs over night. Normally they will not have thawed much at all.

(d) next day, repeat step (a).

(e) next day, repeat step (a)

We also use this method when boondocking, so that we can save on battery power where otherwise we'd want to run the fridge fan. When we're out and about for the day, we shut off the main battery, and turn it on again when we return.

We camp in the desert, where it can get mighty hot. So can Interior BC in mid-summer. No problems ever encountered.

We're going on 10 years' experience with this system.

But whoa. Maybe next year we'll realize (oh-fer-dumb) that we should have been driving with the propane on all these years. (It's called the inductive reasoning problem in philosophy, courtesy of David Hume.)

[Rfriebele]

Originally Posted by Len n Jeanne

OK, so first make sure the fridge latch is functional, pre-trip.

Again-- our protocol on day one is to:

(a) have the food cold or frozen to begin with while loading the fridge/freezer.

(b) put some frozen pacs (we use the blue gel pacs designed for picnic coolers) or frozen sturdy (like backpacking nalgene) water bottles in the freezer and/or around the food.

At least with a newer fridge, it's very well insulated. Don't leave the door open more than necessary.

(c) In the evening when stationary, turn on the fridge and re-freeze your cold pacs over night. Normally they will not have thawed much at all.

(d) next day, repeat step (a).

(e) next day, repeat step (a)

We also use this method when boondocking, so that we can save on battery power where otherwise we'd want to run the fridge fan. When we're out and about for the day, we shut off the main battery, and turn it on again when we return.

We camp in the desert, where it can get mighty hot. So can Interior BC in mid-summer. No problems ever encountered.

We're going on 10 years' experience with this system.

But whoa. Maybe next year we'll realize (oh-fer-dumb) that we should have been driving with the propane on all these years. (It's called the inductive reasoning problem in philosophy, courtesy of David Hume.)

Much of your protocol is one we've followed to begin with but also kept our fridge running for insurance. Now after reading all this, I'm going to get some temp readings. Saving propane is a big deal for me anyway. We're headed north so ambient temps are favorable. Packing it up with frozen items to start, I'm expecting a minimal drop in temp if at all. Starting with temps in the 90s though will be more interesting.....

[rmkrum]

Originally Posted by Rfriebele

I see the need for a study! It's what I used to do so it'll be a fun project for me and may be useful for others new to the AS life. I'll post results upon completion. I'll charge the fridge, record temps over time in ambient conditions with it running & without during travel & then again when ambient conditions are tropical...if this has been done, I'd sure like to know. My inquisitive nature is on overdrive and even though this issue is IMO, a personal preference, it's made me question the efficient use of propane....someone requested data, well, say no more!

OK, sounds like you are an engineer or researcher in another life. Lot of engineering going on around here. I think we do this because it is 'fun' in our minds. Welcome to the gang of engineering/scientific types hanging out here, plus craftsmen, woodworkers, electricians, plumbers, tin-knockers, computer wonks, and other unsavory sorts of folks that simply do this stuff out of love for the technology...and probably, like me, simply refuse to really retire fully. (grin)

[Rfriebele]

Thanks! Retired chemist...born with intense curiosity and desire to research & learn. Imagine the questions that arose after buying our AS, getting the dealer synopsis and then finding this place....Like first day of school!

[rmkrum]

Originally Posted by Rfriebele

Thanks! Retired chemist...born with intense curiosity and desire to research & learn. Imagine the questions that arose after buying our AS, getting the dealer synopsis and then finding this place....Like first day of school!

There is an amazing amount of group knowledge here for the asking and searching. You will also find a wide range of opinions and experiences that are sometimes contradictory. Just part of the fun!!

I'm a semi-retired engineer that works in the electronics and computer world, a fair woodworker and tin bender, a decent cook, and "daddy" to 4 very smart kids, and 8 grandchildren. Someday I'll grow up and really retire....

[PKI]

Originally Posted by rmkrum

-- snip --- why not install a propane cut-off solenoid valve -- snip --

Such a valve solenoid is used on many boats. Propane sinks to bildge and has no way out and concentrates. Consequently there is a hazard. Trailers do not have a similar hazard as propane sinks and disapates.

Slow down, focus on attentive driving and drive defensively. Your odds will improve significantly. Pat

[gypsydad]

Originally Posted by Len n Jeanne

I agree that the risk forumula is not "Drive with your propane on, or risk serious food poisoning."

Again, shutting off the propane isn't about ordinary driving. It's in case you have an accident. Nobody is immune, which is why we have collision insurance.

Chill your food prior to loading it into the fridge. Then if you use our system of frozen gel pacs or sturdy water bottles that get refrozen at night, the risk of putting your food into the temperature danger zone is minimal. Ideally your food is already cold before you put it in the fridge. I just don't get why anyone would therefore even want to burn up propane while driving with the propane on, when it isn't necessary to keep your food from spoiling.

Hey, we don't drink warm beer, either.

Out of curiosity I googled "legal drive RV with propane turned on" and came up with the following:

http://www.drivesmartbc.ca/rvs/operating-rvs-propane Apparently it is not legal in British Columbia to drive with your propane on, although the fact that the car ferry staff routinely ask you it it's turned off before you board suggests that if this actually is the law, it's not enforced on BC's open roads.

In the meantime, we are happy to be in the minority. With our cold drinks and unspoiled food.

Well, enjoy your cold drinks and unspoiled food using your food packs, while we do the same with our "propane powered refers"....by the way, your 19' refer is pretty small, correct? What do you do for 2-3 week trips? You likely use coolers on longer trips? We use a cooler also for extra drinks and wine, when we are traveling... in addition we like using our propane powered refer in our 28' for our food, frozen foods, and ice cream treats, which may answer your question highlighted above!

No safety issues greater than a wreck where a propane bottle would perhaps get ruptured and explode.... there are all kinds of risks out there but as many have said, running the propane use for the refer is pretty low risk to many of us.

[pcskier]

Originally Posted by tjplus

Does anyone have any thoughts about keeping the refrigerator cold while traveling using propane.? We know that there are certain tunnels one cannot travel through carrying propane at all but putting that aside how many of you keep your refrigerator cold while in transit?

Well, you asked four months ago and Airforums did NOT disappoint!

I wonder why the mods don't just close a thread at some point, like when all that's left of the horse is a few tail hairs and a scant aroma that evokes faint associations with a stable? This does get pointless after awhile.

[gypsydad]

Originally Posted by pcskier

Well, you asked four months ago and Airforums did NOT disappoint!

I wonder why the mods don't just close a thread at some point, like when all that's left of the horse is a few tail hairs and a scant aroma that evokes faint associations with a stable? This does get pointless after awhile.

Good night Chet; Good night David....well said.

[J. Morgan]

Originally Posted by Len n Jeanne

http://ferriesbc.proboards.com/threa...-2000-incident

Note that all cars on this ferry are parked in an open-air deck. Two children were injured. The fault was a leaky propane bottle, which could happen driving or stationary.

http://www.fraserway.com/discover/bl...-blow-a-gasket

I did some googling, and it seems that RV propane tank fires are actually pretty common, but normally when the RV is stationary.

http://www.automotivedefects.com/rv-...osion-lawsuit/

It doesn't look like anyone will change their minds here, but we just don't see the need to drive with the propane on when there are effective and easy ways to keep food frozen and cold without it. We save a little on the propane and that's a good thing, too.

I don’t have a dog in this fight, my fridge is electric, but if we examine the evidence, the chance of someone getting hurt because of running an RV refrigerator while towing is just about nil.

Maybe the answer to this whole thread is that it is an individual wants to run or not run a fridge on propane while traveling is a personal choice.

[J. Morgan]

Maybe the answer for those against towing with the refrigerator running is to ditch the absorption gas units in favor of an apartment fridge from Lowe’s?

I have been running my refrigerator off an inverter for about four years now, with no need of an open flame. It only draws a single amp (about 120 watts) when the compressor is running, my alternator easily runs the unit and still charges my house batteries while I travel.

I did this because it was cheap and easy way to travel with a largish refrigerator, but it has worked out pretty well.

[uncle_bob]

Originally Posted by Len n Jeanne

OK, so first make sure the fridge latch is functional, pre-trip.

Again-- our protocol on day one is to:

(a) have the food cold or frozen to begin with while loading the fridge/freezer.

(b) put some frozen pacs (we use the blue gel pacs designed for picnic coolers) or frozen sturdy (like backpacking nalgene) water bottles in the freezer and/or around the food.

At least with a newer fridge, it's very well insulated. Don't leave the door open more than necessary.

(c) In the evening when stationary, turn on the fridge and re-freeze your cold pacs over night. Normally they will not have thawed much at all.

(d) next day, repeat step (a).

(e) next day, repeat step (a)

We also use this method when boondocking, so that we can save on battery power where otherwise we'd want to run the fridge fan. When we're out and about for the day, we shut off the main battery, and turn it on again when we return.

We camp in the desert, where it can get mighty hot. So can Interior BC in mid-summer. No problems ever encountered.

We're going on 10 years' experience with this system.

But whoa. Maybe next year we'll realize (oh-fer-dumb) that we should have been driving with the propane on all these years. (It's called the inductive reasoning problem in philosophy, courtesy of David Hume.)

Hi

Yes, we tried exactly this approach. It failed miserably. The fridge was up around 50 on the digital thermometer we used. This after chugging down the road for only about 8 hours. We threw everything in the freezer and the fridge away as a result. This on a brand new fridge. It was over 100F in the trailer and over 95 outdoors.

Bob

[KK4YZ]

Whatever happened to the 3way fridges that would also run off of 12VDC?
We (still) have a 25year old Jayco pop up with a 3way fridge. Our new AS only has 2Way...
3way fridges weren’t limited to tiny units either. We had a couple of box trailers with 3way fridges, too (years ago)

[PKI]

Originally Posted by Len n Jeanne

http://ferriesbc.proboards.com/threa...-2000-incident

Note that all cars on this ferry are parked in an open-air deck. Two children were injured. The fault was a leaky propane bottle, which could happen driving or stationary.
-- snip --

Not exactly correct - propane was inside a U-haul trailer. That is a contained environment which collected an explosive quantity of gas. That is not quite an example of an open air deck explosion as represented, but is an excellent example of why boats that have areas which collect concentrated gas need more precautions. Would be interesting to understand the ignition source.

Would this explosion have happened while driving? Obviously it could happen when the hazard was stationary.

The story about the death of the couple in the motorhome is disturbing and closer to the discussion. Folks often talk about having to deal with the routing of gas lines when they lift a trailer, so at least some lines are near the axles in our trailer applications. Interesting the info did not seem to place blame with the operator for not turning off the gas, which is counter to the legal argument that has been presented.

As to those who are pushing to close the conversation, use the ignore setting if you can't stand the heat or have no interest. The discussion is civil, has information of value and is worth considering no mater which side you fall on. Hopefully we all want to become more informed so we make better decisions. Pat