Traveling while refrigerator is running on propane

[Len n Jeanne]

In addition to which-- what happens if your propane goes kaflooey during an accident, and your insurance company learns you were driving with the propane turned on?

We realize that we are in the minority, but again. The propane precaution isn't about ordinary driving. Nobody plans to have an accident, yet we all have collision insurance, right?

But I would love to hear from somebody else who has used our cold pack system who has ever had a problem with food spoilage. (Freeze several blue gel cold packs at home/ at night when you're stationary. If need be, distribute them among the food prior to driving, then refreeze them at night.) Even after driving all day, the fridge is usually so well insulated that the cold packs positioned in the main fridge area are still frozen by evening.

[J. Morgan]

I am thinking that the 30 gallons of fuel in the tow vehicle is an exponentially bigger threat in an accident than the 14 gallons of propane on the trailer, and this isn’t just because of the quantity.

The vehicle fuel will pour on the ground and burn UNDER THE VEHICLE for a long time, propane not so much.

If propane being turned on while traveling was a real hazard, it would have been made illegal decades ago.

I am going to say that propane from the low side of the regulator, and even propane from the high pressure side of the regulator is a far lower threat than gasoline pouring by gravity alone from a 3/8 line, both as a threat of ignition, and as a continuing burn threat to life and limb.

[uncle_bob]

Hi

There are a *lot* of studies about how people react to various levels of risk. They look at how people compare risk in their daily lives. The studies pretty much always come to the same conclusion - people ignore "common risks" and focus on things that are very unlikely to happen. As one of many results, most people are actually willing to take a big risk to avoid a very small risk.

If avoiding a 1 in 2 million yearly risk of non-fatal fire creates a 1 in 200,000 yearly risk of fatal food poisoning, have you made the right decision? Since food poisoning is a common thing, we tend to discount it. (48 million in the US are impacted each year). Mostly it is non-fatal.(128,000 are hospitalized each year). If you travel a lot and eat in odd places, you likely run into it from time to time. It just becomes "part of life". 5,000 people die in the US each year from food poisoning. The best data I can find suggests that roughly <= 2 people die in gas station refueling fires in a typical year in the US.

There are risks associated with anything you do. The idea that you can eliminate all risk is an illusion. In some cases "risk avoidance" involves creating other risks .... welcome to life.

Bob

[Rfriebele]

Originally Posted by uncle_bob

Hi

There are a *lot* of studies about how people react to various levels of risk. They look at how people compare risk in their daily lives. The studies pretty much always come to the same conclusion - people ignore "common risks" and focus on things that are very unlikely to happen. As one of many results, most people are actually willing to take a big risk to avoid a very small risk.

If avoiding a 1 in 2 million yearly risk of non-fatal fire creates a 1 in 200,000 yearly risk of fatal food poisoning, have you made the right decision? Since food poisoning is a common thing, we tend to discount it. (48 million in the US are impacted each year). Mostly it is non-fatal.(128,000 are hospitalized each year). If you travel a lot and eat in odd places, you likely run into it from time to time. It just becomes "part of life". 5,000 people die in the US each year from food poisoning. The best data I can find suggests that roughly <= 2 people die in gas station refueling fires in a typical year in the US.

There are risks associated with anything you do. The idea that you can eliminate all risk is an illusion. In some cases "risk avoidance" involves creating other risks .... welcome to life.

Bob

Oh yeah...I've been stricken with food poisoning 4 times and believe me, each one was a 'kill me now' experience. All from restaurants. I hate eating out. A lot. But I still 'risk' it because my wife really enjoys it. Something about being 'waited on' & not having to cook. So this sent me looking at RV fire risk. RVs were ~1% of all vehicle fires and of those, propane isnt listed as a cause factor. Causes were vehicle motor, tires, electrical or something else but that doesn't mean propane didn't become involved. See, I'm married to a lady who's career was risk analysis so when it comes to what WE prepare for, it's the thing that's already come close to killing me...not suggesting the other practice has no merit...of course it does. It's made me more aware of something I hadn't thought about before and I plan to incorporate some better habits. In the end, we will do what makes us feel most secure...

[TDA]

Looking at risk is the right thing to do here, and doing so certainly doesn't result in the stark choice mentioned above: "propane fire or fatal food poisoning."

Consider your modern tow vehicle/trailer setup hurtling down the highway...
There are a number of systems on board that are designed to PREVENT an unplanned event that results in injury or property loss. These include good brakes, good mirrors, a weight distribution hitch, sway control, blind spot detection etc. Passive cooling of refrigerator contents, and your lunch in a cooler fit here too.
But we all recognize that not every incident can be prevented. So, we we have systems in place to MITIGATE the risk (reduce the human and material cost of the event we couldn't prevent). That is why your setup includes seat belts, air bags, safety chains, a breakaway switch, fire extinguishers, tow vehicle impact-activated fuel pump shutoff, trailer smoke alarm, CO alarm, propane alarm, escape window(s), etc. Your trailer's DOT approved propane cylinders, properly mounted, with valve in the off position, are part of your RV's risk mitigation system. In an accident, those closed cylinders are very robust and unlikely to fail, unless impinged upon directly by sustained fire. But, when you open that valve and operate the fridge while driving, you have defeated a designed mitigation measure. You've opened a Pandora's box of new possibilities, should an unplanned event occur. To use a term from the aviation community, you may have begun an error chain- the open valve is a new link in a potential chain of events that MAY result in a catastrophic loss.
So maybe you are just a brave, tough bugger, and you are not afraid of a little risk. Well, as someone else stated, even if you escape the resulting calamity unscathed, the potential liability issues are huge, and the evidence is plain for responders to see- "hey, this valve is open."

[n2916s]

Well, this thread has gone where all similar "propane on or off?" go.
The bottom line is most of us run with it on and have for years. Some, for safety reasons have concluded it is better to run with it off.

In the end it is simply a matter of choice. One hundred and twenty five posts to get here...

[J. Morgan]

Originally Posted by TDA

Looking at risk is the right thing to do here, and doing so certainly doesn't result in the stark choice mentioned above: "propane fire or fatal food poisoning."

Consider your modern tow vehicle/trailer setup hurtling down the highway...
There are a number of systems on board that are designed to PREVENT an unplanned event that results in injury or property loss. These include good brakes, good mirrors, a weight distribution hitch, sway control, blind spot detection etc. Passive cooling of refrigerator contents, and your lunch in a cooler fit here too.
But we all recognize that not every incident can be prevented. So, we we have systems in place to MITIGATE the risk (reduce the human and material cost of the event we couldn't prevent). That is why your setup includes seat belts, air bags, safety chains, a breakaway switch, fire extinguishers, tow vehicle impact-activated fuel pump shutoff, trailer smoke alarm, CO alarm, propane alarm, escape window(s), etc. Your trailer's DOT approved propane cylinders, properly mounted, with valve in the off position, are part of your RV's risk mitigation system. In an accident, those closed cylinders are very robust and unlikely to fail, unless impinged upon directly by sustained fire. But, when you open that valve and operate the fridge while driving, you have defeated a designed mitigation measure. You've opened a Pandora's box of new possibilities, should an unplanned event occur. To use a term from the aviation community, you may have begun an error chain- the open valve is a new link in a potential chain of events that MAY result in a catastrophic loss.
So maybe you are just a brave, tough bugger, and you are not afraid of a little risk. Well, as someone else stated, even if you escape the resulting calamity unscathed, the potential liability issues are huge, and the evidence is plain for responders to see- "hey, this valve is open."

So traveling with the propane on must be illegal then?

My guess is that few if any of the burned spots on the highways of America are caused by open propane valves, 99.9% of them are going to be caused by power unit fuel leaks or power unit electrical issues.

The thing is, if traveling with the refrigerator on is too dangerous, then taking a shower or a bath is an act that invites injury and death, for sure not worth the risk.

[gypsydad]

Hey- this thread is feeding itself with the "OMG; what if" crowd! If your not comfortable with the propane on while driving, don't run your fridge on propane. Many of us run with the propane on fueling our refrigerator and have done this for many years without any issues. You can overthink safety or you can get out there and enjoy life! Just saying....

[DavidsonOverlander]

Originally Posted by TDA

Well, as someone else stated, even if you escape the resulting calamity unscathed, the potential liability issues are huge, and the evidence is plain for responders to see- "hey, this valve is open."

This statement would seem to indicate that it is negligent to travel with your propane valves open? If that is the case, wouldn't it be illegal to travel with valves open, or wouldn't there at least be warnings in the refrigerator manual? According to Merriam-Webster, negligence is the "failure to exercise the care that a reasonably prudent person would exercise in like circumstances". Since a very high proportion of RVers travel with their tanks turned on, and there is no law to prevent it, wouldn't that mean that it isn't negligent?

I just looked through a Dometic manual and there's nothing there warning about using the fridge while in motion. It even implies that it's okay because after the warning about having the fridge level if it's running while the vehicle is stopped, it states: "When the vehicle is moving, the leveling is not critical as the rolling and pitching motion of the vehicle will pass to either side of level, keeping the liquid ammonia from accumulating in the evaporator tubing."

I'm not saying that the risk is zero, but considering the number of warnings there are regarding other hazards, it would seem that this would be better publicized if it was a significant issue.

[Rfriebele]

Either way, I'd bet theres a whole lot out there who like me, never gave it a second thought. You buy an RV and drive it off the lot with everyone involved saying, driving with your fridge on won't hurt the unit!. So it's implied to be okay...that's it. ..for me anyway, this is another chapter in the education process.

[J. Morgan]

Originally Posted by Rfriebele

Either way, I'd bet theres a whole lot out there who like me, never gave it a second thought. You buy an RV and drive it off the lot with everyone involved saying, driving with your fridge on won't hurt the unit!. So it's implied to be okay...that's it. ..for me anyway, this is another chapter in the education process.

In todays litigation obsessed culture, an implication is often all we will ever get. That’s just how it is.

Simply put, living a life in fear of getting sued over mundane issues would not only be futile, it would be a drag. Some people climb Everest, other reckless and highly negligent individuals pull their trailer with the propane on..... lol

What has happened to us?

[uncle_bob]

Hi

So here we are after yet another page of emotion and scare stories. Sorry, but that's really the way it looks. To the degree there is a risk, that risk is vanishingly small. To listen to the way it gets played up, you would think it's the biggest risk you will ever take in your life ....

Bob

[Len n Jeanne]

I agree that the risk forumula is not "Drive with your propane on, or risk serious food poisoning."

Again, shutting off the propane isn't about ordinary driving. It's in case you have an accident. Nobody is immune, which is why we have collision insurance.

Chill your food prior to loading it into the fridge. Then if you use our system of frozen gel pacs or sturdy water bottles that get refrozen at night, the risk of putting your food into the temperature danger zone is minimal. Ideally your food is already cold before you put it in the fridge. I just don't get why anyone would therefore even want to burn up propane while driving with the propane on, when it isn't necessary to keep your food from spoiling.

Hey, we don't drink warm beer, either.

Out of curiosity I googled "legal drive RV with propane turned on" and came up with the following:

http://www.drivesmartbc.ca/rvs/operating-rvs-propane Apparently it is not legal in British Columbia to drive with your propane on, although the fact that the car ferry staff routinely ask you it it's turned off before you board suggests that if this actually is the law, it's not enforced on BC's open roads.

In the meantime, we are happy to be in the minority. With our cold drinks and unspoiled food.

[xrvr]

Personal choice. But the truth is it is not illegal in any state exceot a few tunnels to travel with the gas on. So if you are using the legal aspect to decide to turn the gas off you are incorrect, period. If you have an irrational fear of fire then turn it off. I worry more about a gas leak while stationary in camp thats why i have an lp detector. I suspect the same ones who fear the gas on while traveling also worry excessively about gas while camping.

[rmkrum]

Two thoughts on the subject:

I do travel with propane on, to assure the fridge is cold enough, and to have hot water available during rest stops and lunch breaks.

That said, why not install a propane cut-off solenoid valve to the trailer like the Interstates have. Wire it to a switch that selects manual on, while in camp, off, and TV control. The TV control would shut down propane when you shut down to refuel, or have a disconnect emergency, etc. and would improve safety under way. I have the habit of running clearance lights (to keep my rear and side view AS cameras on) so that would shut off the gas while refueling.

Two questions for the group:

Thoughts on refinements of the idea;

And where can I get the appropriate solenoid valve like the Interstates use.

This would be a slight complication, need installation, and add another point of failure to the system, but its a fairly well-known one. Don't start on why Airstream doesn't put this on an expensive trailer at the factory already, please! I assume we all know the answer to that one...

[jdalrymple]

Originally Posted by TDA

Unlike what is present on DOT-approved propane powered vehicles, there is no approved safety system covering you if you drive with the trailer tank valve(s) on.

I can find no evidence such a device exist or is required. It certainly didn't on the fleet of propane powered vehicles I am familiar with.

Vehicle fuel systems even take the "risks" one step further by supplying propane in the liquid form from the tank to a device under the hood that vaporizes it to gas.

This is the only way the enough BTUs can be supplied to power an engine.

Fuel can only leave a bottle used on our trailers in a vapor, unless the bottle is upside down. And, if the regulator is intact, only at very low pressure.

If it was as dangerous as some would have us all believe, no manufacturer would sell a rig with the ability to travel with propane on.


One must learn the facts, not rely on fears and mis-information.


Regards,

JD

[n2916s]

As you travel down the road, a significant number of the vehicles you encounter are driven by people under the influence of drugs, alcohol and/or texting.

Many of the vehicles you encounter are occupied by felons, some of whom are armed to the teeth.

Many of the bridges you cross haven't been rebuilt since the 60's (or longer).

In Florida, we don't have vehicle inspections so lots of vehicles that have bald tires, worn brakes, parts falling off, lights out.

Those kids on that overpass ahead -- is that a concrete block they are holding?

Propane is really way down the list of what might get me out there.

[rmkrum]

And lets not talk about clouds of killer bees, service stations that explode when the tanker truck is refilling their tanks, or the possibility of being accosted by a homeless person...

If we spend ALL our time worrying about any number of things that MIGHT happen, all we can do is crouch in a corner, with our favorite blankie, and suck on our thumbs.

I'd rather be out there doing something, personally. I'll handle the risks that are big but easily mitigated, like running out of gas on the 405 freeway at rush hour, etc. I've managed to get to a rather old age with minimum scars without worrying to death about everything that might happen...so I'll keep the fridge running whilst underway....and enjoy the cold beer at the end of the day!

[HiHoAgRV]

Data, what we need is data! How about testing? I just checked and these have excess flow preventers built it. I screwed it onto my tank and opened the valve, pop. It shut the flow to almost nothing and it stays that way until some back pressure builds up. No fireball here if my tanks come loose and rip the hose apart.

The color of the knob indicates the flow rate before shutting down.

[AlinCal]

This is good news because we head out tomorrow at noon and will be doing grades in excess of 6% over the course of 250 mi. with the propane and refer ON.