Winter Camping

[JamuJoe]

Originally Posted by Vitaver

Thank you for the great advice, I will be using a lot of it. Just to clarify so my 'experiment' helps others.

1. I am not winterizing: I am in full use of the shower, sink, toilet, water heater, fridge, etc.

2. Connected to city water though a heated hose (blue from Camco with the addition of insulating material and gorilla tape around the inlet, see photo).

3. I placed this pace heater at max now. It's thermostat allows to setup fan speed and temp, but I don't think it shuts off when a certain temp is reached. One that does may allow to setup a point bellow that on the AS thermostat, so it will start and blow air into the pipes while saving propane when temp is higher thanks to the space heater/sun.

4. The skirt... I love the idea, what I don't like as much is so much more stuff to carry. The skirt itself must be pretty long (on my 27FC that will be at least 70 feet long) plus enough width to raise on the walls of the RV to reach the domes and bellow to fold on the ground and (through groomers?) be held in place with stakes (also carry 40+ of those). Is there a simples solution?

5. I placed one $10 heat lamp under the carriage close to tanks. Of course with winds, probably not very effective but if it stays in place, the actual irradiated light, independently of heat that would be blown away by the breeze, should still have an effect (I hope).

6 Gray tank filled to 88%, fresh water to 100%, black tank to 25%: all that to add weight because of CAT I hurricane winds forecasted last night. I cleared the area around my ring from anything lose I could find.

7. Taking chances, I know... but what if we found out that we feared (and limited our enjoyment) of our rigs in winter, unnecessarily? I think Churchill said 'I spent half of my life fearing things that never happened', of course he won the war but lost his re-election. . Will keep you updated.

8. Read on this Forum that iit is easier to keep a full tank warm than a half empty one. Makes some sense as water (obviously) comes at above freezing temp, so at least for a while, it ads heat to the rig.



9 With me luck

Good luck and happy winter camping, Vitaver.

I appreciate sharing practical winter use experience. We will soon depart SW CO bound for FL, and will travel fully operational, as we have done for years.

Our most significant adaptation for winter travel is heat management. We tow with the furnace set at 50 deg, and stop about an hour from destination to turn it up to 75 deg for warming bedding etc. I activate the water heater at the same time. I'll also do this during a lunch stop. Never a problem with the furnace or water heater. I do turn it off during refueling.

We use CGs with electricity throughout the cold portion of the trip. One1500w Lasco electric heater midships, one tiny 200w Lasco 'My Heat' personal heater in the both the bath and bedroom (each seated on velcro) work for heat and air circulation without adding the humidity that propane heat creates. The furnace remains set at 60 deg to help protect the plumbing, but I suspect that the flooring transmits enough heat to keep plumbing and water tanks from freezing. I would like to run 110v heat cables around the tanks and plumbing, but access is daunting.

In my untested opinion, additional window coverings and skirting aren't worth the bother for travel and overnight camping. We want light and solar gain as available from the windows, (sure I wish they were double pane) and blocking under chassis wind with cloth should have minimal advantage. Wind chill effect applies only to human skin.

Safe Travels, JamuJoe

[Al and Missy]

"...and blocking under chassis wind with cloth should have minimal advantage. Wind chill effect applies only to human skin."

Yes but....

Wind chill factor expresses the effective temperature on a human body as a result of wind speed in cold weather. It represents the temperature that would remove heat from a human body at the same rate if there were no wind. The difference relates to issues such as hypothermia where the wind chill reduces the amount of time before hypothermia sets in. Wind does not, however, have the capability to lower the temperature of an object below the temperature of the air. Water, for example will not freeze at a windchill of 25 degrees if the actual air temperature is above freezing.

Air flow over heat-conductive surfaces carries heat away faster whether that surface is a human body or the skin of a trailer. That is why there are fans on automobile radiators, refrigerator and air conditioner coils, etc. The heat transfer effect of air movement is significant. The internal temperature of a trailer depends on the balance between heat loss and heat gain. Heat is being added by the furnace, heaters, human bodies, appliances, etc. Heat is being lost through the body of the trailer at a rate in proportion to the difference between the internal and external temperatures and the thermal resistance between the inside and outside. Insulation between the skins increases the thermal resistance, air movement on the outside surface increases the thermal conductivity of the skin to the air, decreasing the overall thermal resistance and increasing heat loss. Think of the floor as an automobile radiator with the heat on the inside and the cooling air on the outside.

That said, I have no idea as to the effectiveness of placing a skirt around the trailer, but I doubt it is insignificant as so many people do it in really cold weather locations.

Al

[Vitaver]

Originally Posted by Vitaver

BTW, this $24 or so cheap ceramic air heater does shut off on tilting. Tested numerous times. Tempted to get the Dyson but can't justify the extra $300 as of yet, working on it...

It does shut off upon tilting and actually the thermostat will also shut off the heater when the temperature on the setting is reached.

[Alluminati]

Originally Posted by Vitaver

1. I am not winterizing: I am in full use of the shower, sink, toilet, water heater, fridge, etc....

Hat’s off to you! I want to believe I will do the same as you if the opportunity presents itself. I want to know the capacity of my trailer to provide me comfort in various extremes.

Granted your AS and my Avion are constructed differently, but according to their literature, both trailers should be comfortable in any weather. When we travelled this fall, we were mostly in chilly weather, with a few cold days, but only two or three nights below freezing, and then barely below 32. Following our owner’s manual, we set the furnace thermostat so the trailer would be comfortable at all times; 72 when we were home, and 68 at night, or when we were out (traveling down the road). We used the stove every morning for breakfast, and even did a little baking once. We took all the long hot showers we wanted too. The propane lasted close to two weeks. The only cold weather precaution we took was to disconnect hoses when the weather was near freezing.

You have no cause for alarm in high winds. Your trailer was specifically designed to slip through a steady 65 mph head wind. Few places you can be that will be less ruffled by a strong wind than in your AS. If you are concerned about wind whistling under your trailer, just shovel a snow berm on the upwind side of your trailer.

High five, for requiring your trailer to perform according to manufacturer’s designs, and enjoying the services your well built machine was meant to provide.

[OTRA15]

Looking forward to updates about weather conditions, and propane usage, as our trailers' insulation is not really designed for such extreme cold weather. I forget what the R-factor is, but R-13 would be an optimistic rating for the walls and ceiling IMO. It may be less. With the outside air at 0 F, heat is air-streaming to the outside at a very fast clip, and it is sheer folly to ignore this cost.

Thus, it is only the massive infusion of carbon-based petro-chemicals which sustains an AS through such bitter cold: propane for the furnace; and coal/oil/etc-fired electrical generators to power the grid.



Can this experiment in challenging the limits of winter airstreaming be done successfully? Maybe . . . but at what cost to The Earth to prove the point?

High fives and manic ebullience do not change the laws of physics.

In depleting the Earth's resources to prove points like this, we should -- indeed must -- question our motives IMO.

[PaulnGina]

Originally Posted by OTRA15

Thus, it is only the massive infusion of carbon-based petro-chemicals which sustains an AS through such bitter cold: propane for the furnace; and coal/oil/etc-fired electrical generators to power the grid.



Can this experiment in challenging the limits of winter airstreaming be done successfully? Maybe . . . but at what cost to The Earth to prove the point?

High fives and manic ebullience do not change the laws of physics.

In depleting the Earth's resources to prove points like this, we should -- indeed must -- question our motives IMO.

Massive infusions of natural gas or red oak keep us warm at home during the winter.
I'm doing the earth a favor by going camping.

I'll give a high five to anyone, anywhere, who goes out and enjoys God's creation in their Airstream, Avion, etc.

If I imagined that I was damaging The Earth that much by using my Avion any time of the year, I'd keep it parked in the back yard.

See you down the road! (Getting there with our Avion and an awesome 3/4-ton diesel!)

[Lily&Me]

When traveling in winter, even in areas that should not have sub-freezing temperatures, one must always be prepared with....microfleece.

It takes up little room, may be worn during the day and slept in at night.

Warm, warm, warm, and toasty warm....add something equally warm for your feet, and the cold can't touch you.

True.

We/I have accidentally been camping in temps in the teens, once while boondocking, and lived to tell the tale.

Microfleece. It's the answer to keeping your body warm.


Maggie

[Adventure.AS]

Originally Posted by OTRA15

Looking forward to updates about weather conditions, and propane usage, as our trailers' insulation is not really designed for such extreme cold weather. I forget what the R-factor is, but R-13 would be an optimistic rating for the walls and ceiling IMO. ...

I am hoping that your post is in jest ... otherwise I gather that you don't use your trailer in the summer when it is hot and there is a need to use an air conditioner. Insulation (or the lack thereof) have the same properties for keeping heat in or out. In a hot climate (or summer) your coach will need more btus of air conditioning than a well insulated structure and consume the same equivalent of energy summer cooling vs. winter camping heating.

[Tn Traveler]

Just estimating, I would say that the insulation R value as installed in an Airstream is about 6 or 7. It seems to be laid over the frame structure, so even compacted there creates at least a thermal break. It is probably an effective R value of no more that 5 for the entire wall structure. Then you have the windows and skylites that are probably and effective R 1. This is not really energy efficient, but then again we are talking about relatively small surface areas.

[NorCal Matt]

Originally Posted by Adventure.AS

I am hoping that your post is in jest ... otherwise I gather that you don't use your trailer in the summer when it is hot and there is a need to use an air conditioner. Insulation (or the lack thereof) have the same properties for keeping heat in or out. In a hot climate (or summer) your coach will need more btus of air conditioning than a well insulated structure and consume the same equivalent of energy summer cooling vs. winter camping heating.

As far as using energy to either heat or cool our trailers, it's really about the difference in external to internal temperature. A hot 100 degree day is still only 20-30 degrees from comfortable. A cold 0 degree day is 60-70 degrees from comfortable. Of course this assumes that the air conditioner is roughly as efficient as the heater, which may not be the case.

As to R rating, residential windows are typically measured in a U value. This, if I remember my energy calculations class correctly, is a coefficient of an R value. All that to say, even double panned windows have a really low R value and our trailers much less.

Matt

[xrvr]

If the trailer is designed for winter use then why do you have to winterize?

[eubank]

Pretty obvious, huh? If you have a rig that is designed for cold weather use, then you have a choice between using it in the cold, or not.

Caveats like crazy.

Not all Airstreams were built for winter use. Just look underneath from outside. If you can immediately see the dump valves themselves, then the rig is not winterworthy.

If you have a winterworthy rig, that means you have to take responsibility for keeping all water-containing lines and tanks above freezing, 33F or above. Not that hard to do, but it's also easy enough to screw up. Electric heaters, for instance, do a nice job of keeping you warm in the cabin, but a less than admirable job of keeping tanks and lines above freezing.

And then there's that final choice. Winterize it. Then you don't have any responsibility for keeping lines and tanks above freezing. Want to leave for the day or a couple of days? Do it! Turn everything off and lock the door. Of course, you have no water in the rig for any purpose, but that's the trade-off.

Here in Los Lunas (our current location) it has been getting down around 20 or 25 at night. And we use the rig to its fullest: All water systems operational; no freeze-ups at all. (Our 50 year old Airstream is indeed winterworthy!) But we also use the propane furnace to heat -- running around one 30 lb bottle every five days or so.


Lynn

Originally Posted by avionstream

If the trailer is designed for winter use then why do you have to winterize?

[Alluminati]

Thus, it is only the massive infusion of carbon-based petro-chemicals which sustains an AS through such bitter cold: propane for the furnace; and coal/oil/etc-fired electrical generators to power the grid. Can this experiment in challenging the limits of winter airstreaming be done successfully? Maybe . . . but at what cost to The Earth to prove the point? High fives and manic ebullience do not change the laws of physics.

Perhaps I overstated my aim to find the extremity of my trailer’s ability to protect me from the ravages of the wild. Perhaps it is more accurate to say “if the opportunity presents itself”. ...Oh wait, I DID say that… I’m not chasing extreme weather camping, but I will gladly face it if it comes.

If you were a tent camper that traveled by bicycle, I would take your preaching as sincere. But you travel with a 2 yr old Airstream??? Yeah right!! HAHAHAHA!!!!! Good one! For a second there, you really had me. Is your TV a Prius? LOL.

As far as using energy to either heat or cool our trailers, it's really about the difference in external to internal temperature. A hot 100 degree day is still only 20-30 degrees from comfortable. A cold 0 degree day is 60-70 degrees from comfortable. Of course this assumes that the air conditioner is roughly as efficient as the heater, which may not be the case.

Actually heating with a gas fire is far more efficient than burning gas to generate electricity for cooling.

If the trailer is designed for winter use then why do you have to winterize?

The trailer IS designed for winter USE.
Winterizing is for winter STORAGE.
Trailers in use should not be winterized.

Not all Airstreams were built for winter use. Just look underneath from outside. If you can immediately see the dump valves themselves, then the rig is not winterworthy.

My bad. I didn’t consider that when blithely suggesting everyone should crank up their furnaces and head for the snow. Many of us have valves that are enclosed. Furnace ducts feed warmth to all the plumbing. It is actually more dangerous for trailers that have heated plumbing to use electric space heaters. The plumbing needs heat from the propane furnace to stay functional.

[Vitaver]

Originally Posted by OTRA15

Looking forward to updates about weather conditions, and propane usage, as our trailers' insulation is not really designed for such extreme cold weather. I forget what the R-factor is, but R-13 would be an optimistic rating for the walls and ceiling IMO. It may be less. With the outside air at 0 F, heat is air-streaming to the outside at a very fast clip, and it is sheer folly to ignore this cost.

Thus, it is only the massive infusion of carbon-based petro-chemicals which sustains an AS through such bitter cold: propane for the furnace; and coal/oil/etc-fired electrical generators to power the grid.



Can this experiment in challenging the limits of winter airstreaming be done successfully? Maybe . . . but at what cost to The Earth to prove the point?

High fives and manic ebullience do not change the laws of physics.

In depleting the Earth's resources to prove points like this, we should -- indeed must -- question our motives IMO.

Towing with a Prius?

[Vitaver]

Originally Posted by avionstream

If the trailer is designed for winter use then why do you have to winterize?

Furnace not running, etc.

[Vitaver]

Furnace does blow hot air to the plumbing below, so in subfreezing it needs to run. The combo space-heater/s - furnace is a balance. I sat the space heaters (2, a larger one by the galley and a smaller for the bedroom aft) at 50% heating capacity AND the thermostat for the furnace to kick in at 50 F. I assume (correctly so far) that if the cabin is kept above 50, leaving cabinets open will suffice to keep the plumbing above 32 F. This way I use a lot less propane and not much electricity. I am connected to the grid. Outside temp falls below freezing every day and (touch wood, cross fingers, etc.) fully functional, full enjoyment of the rig so far. About $30 of electricity in about a month. BTW, not trying to prove any point, just enjoying life

[markdoane]

Done my share of cold weather camping but I'm not buying into the skirt idea.

You won't catch me wearing a kilt in winter. Same goes for the Airstream.

[Jim Flower]

Originally Posted by markdoane

Done my share of cold weather camping but I'm not buying into the skirt idea.

You won't catch me wearing a kilt in winter. Same goes for the Airstream.

I spent a winter in a skid shack in Estevan, Saskatchewan. Estevan gets the same weather as Fargo. Minus 30 degrees F is not rare. The trailers in the vicinity of the skid shack all had skirts. Two or three, one hundred watt light bulbs were kept on 24/7 inside the enclosure as well as another one under a cover at the propane bottles.
My point is, if you would put a little something on under your kilt, all would most likely be ok. 😋Jim

[Alluminati]

Oh brother! Now I've got an image in my head of a guy with a lightbulb under his kilt.

[SteveSueMac]

Is that a lightbulb under your kilt, or.... Never mind...😀