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Old 12-09-2012, 03:58 PM   #113
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Gene,

Just to clarify:

I presume you meant repair and not maintenance.
I meant both. None of either. Well, I grease the U joints on the front drive shaft.
I suppose that costs a few bucks over 30 years.

Another use for 4WD is on bad gravel roads where the truck can wander. Put it in 4WD and the truck will drive straighter.

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Old 12-09-2012, 04:04 PM   #114
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On my 111,000 mile GMC 4X4 3/4 ton, the only thing I have done is change the oil in the transfer case, and I don't remember what that cost...just the price of the oil because I did it myself like all the rest of the routine maintenance.

I say if you don't want four wheel drive, don't buy it.
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Old 12-09-2012, 04:28 PM   #115
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4x4 Maintenance

Here are the 4x4 only maintenance items called for in the Service manual for my 2003 dodge 2500 4x4.

Lubricate outer tire rod ends ............. every 6,000 miles.
Change front axle (differential) fluid..... every 15,000 miles
Change transfer case fluid................. every 60,000 miles.

Ken
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Old 12-09-2012, 05:34 PM   #116
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The Toyota dealer in this county says to ignore the recommendations to change differential, transmission and transfer case fluids. Parts are machined better and lub lasts far, far longer than it used to. I had the oil changed in the rear differential anyway, because that one has the most strain from towing. The owners' manual recommends pretty infrequent oil changes to the front differential. No recommendation on tie rods.

Generally, oil/lub changes are coming further and further apart. Even if they did not, it is a fairly small cost especially if you do it yourself. I had the dealer do the rear differential either because I was really pressed for time and needed to get it done, or I was lazy that week, probably the latter.

The big expense would be repairs

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Old 12-09-2012, 05:44 PM   #117
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Since our truck is 9 1/2 years old and has just turned over 70,000 miles, it is not a financial burden for me to have the dealer do the work. Besides that, it gives me a good feeling to be a job creator.

Ken
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Old 12-09-2012, 06:23 PM   #118
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Sorry, Bob, I disagree, and that's Ok. No need to argue about it. If you can post a model and maybe it's manufacturer youTube, that'd be great.

All the LSes have clutches. Even the OEM production lockers have a clutch pack which is set at a variable tension (see video above). The difference is LS clutches slip at a lower torque input than lockers. Lockers will slip at just below the axleshaft fatigue point. That is, it is a safety valve to keep from snapping an axle. Not so with limited slip.


Again, please see the above videos.
not sure what you are getting at?? this is a description from the factory service manual on my Dodge
The Trac-Rite™ differential is a helical gear differential. The differential has two side gears (3), two thrust washers (1) and one spacer (2).

No clutch...what do you need a video for?? if is not on you tube it must not exist???
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Old 12-09-2012, 06:27 PM   #119
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Production front locker 05 Ram description again from factory service manual




The electric locker differential has an 12 volt electromagnetic coil on the ring gear side of the differential. When the coil is energized a dog clutch is engaged in the differential case which locks both axles. A 5 volt magnetic target sensor (1) mounted on the bearing cap is used to indicate the system has been activated.

Again to clutch between the axles..........
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Old 12-09-2012, 07:12 PM   #120
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Production front locker 05 Ram description again from factory service manual




The electric locker differential has an 12 volt electromagnetic coil on the ring gear side of the differential. When the coil is energized a dog clutch is engaged in the differential case which locks both axles. A 5 volt magnetic target sensor (1) mounted on the bearing cap is used to indicate the system has been activated.

Again to clutch between the axles..........
Ah, FRONT locker. Nice. Does the manual say not to use it on road? If so, I agree, it could be a true locker w/o a clutch. But if you use it on wet or dry roads, I bet it crow hops like mad. Or does it have a clutch? Who makes it, I'd like to look it up.
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Old 12-09-2012, 07:14 PM   #121
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not sure what you are getting at?? this is a description from the factory service manual on my Dodge
The Trac-Rite™ differential is a helical gear differential. The differential has two side gears (3), two thrust washers (1) and one spacer (2).

No clutch...what do you need a video for?? if is not on you tube it must not exist???
Is this one front or rear? I wanted a video or diagram so I could better understand its operation. There are many mechanical configurations out there.
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Old 12-09-2012, 07:31 PM   #122
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Here it is. I am not familiar with it. It is American Axle produced. There are 3 different models. Pretty vague on operation. The do discuss clutching, but don't use plates within the description of a couple of them. I'd love to see an exploded view of the diff, but in their parts page, they only show the diff assembly.

TracRite® GT - Helical Gear Limited Slip Differential | American Axle & Manufacturing | Aftermarket OE Parts
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Old 12-09-2012, 08:13 PM   #123
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Found this pic of cutaways of their models:

TracRite® Axle Differentials | Driveline Systems | Product Portfolio | American Axle & Manufacturing

Not very definitive but I THINK, and only think the first three are of the type you'd find in axle diffs of production vehicles. As the description below indicates, the helical versions do not have clutch plates, but do employ a set of pinion gears which engage a set of "pinion brake shoes". I believe these work sorta like an overrunning clutch in a transmission and are in effect a clutch, just not a fiber disc clutch.

trac vs electric.pdf


The verbiage does discuss, "Once the frictional forces are overcome, differentiation will occur." That indicates a frictional clutch is employed.
Since this model is engaged all the time and is compatible with ABS and traction control, I would think it differentiates quite easily and behaves more like a limited slip.
The two electric options (first and third from left...found a different pic which shows the third one as electric also) add dogs which appear to truly lock up the rear end. I gotta believe that the electric feature would be on in four low all the time, but be speed limited in four hi or two hi regardless of driver input on a switch. That's a guess, but it would be really dangerous to be truly locked at higher speeds.

The fourth one is somewhat a mystery...but must be an AWD transfer case differential which operates like the second from the left non-electric axle diff.
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Old 12-09-2012, 10:56 PM   #124
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Hi, my brand new 1978 Jeep CJ-5 came with manual locking hubs and a manually operated transfer case. I had this vehicle for ten years and never spent a dime on the four wheel drive system. Newer systems with electronics may have more problems and all of them use more gas/fuel.

My CJ-5 and several Fords that I have owned including my Lincoln have/had limited slip differentials. The Jeep had another name for it, but it was the same thing as my Fords. One forum member, [I won't mention any names] burnt out several limited slips and blamed Ford because they thought it would get them out from being stuck. Limited slips are just that, limited. It only takes a few hundred pounds of torque to turn one wheel while the other is stationary. They are only meant for helping in situations one wheel will slip on a patch of wet road, patch of sand on the road, or something where the slipping wheel is less than a couple of hundred pounds of difference in traction. [this couple of hundred pounds of difference, in some cases, is enough to get you past the slippery part of the road] Spinning one wheel while being stuck will fry the clutches. You can try to help this situation by partially applying the brakes; The slipping wheel will make the brakes heat up and try to stop that wheel from turning and transfer the power to the drive wheel. This brings it back to driver abilities.
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Old 12-10-2012, 07:55 AM   #125
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Very True Robert. That's exactly why I like LS for performance cars only. On the "strip" (dry street) the coefficient of friction between tires is rarely different enough to overcome the clutches and you get two tire traction. But with 4wd, where snow or mudding, or sand can often create very different coefficients of friction, it is really easy to burn up LS and much less (but possible) to eat up a production locker. Both types of units are for low end pulling, not pedal to the metal spin up.

Again see the Eaton youtube upthread for what I mean.

The folks you read about who eat up rear ends of both GENERALLY have modified trucks (chipped....etc) and are putting out way more power than the diffs were designed for, or they just don't understand how to get max traction to get them out of their particular situation. They gotta go aftermarket for stuff like Torsen etc.
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Old 12-12-2012, 06:46 PM   #126
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My dearaly departed dad's suggestion:
Use 2 wd almost exclusively until you get your TV (solo) stuck and then shift into 4WD instead of calling the tow company...that reduces the likilhood that you will get into a situation that exceeds your 2wd traction or driving ability.

Our sports car did not have 4wd, but all of our daily drivers and TV have had 4wd for the last 35 years. We live on a hill and often the snow plow generates a burm that is nearly impossible to drive through. With 4wd a vehicle generally also has better ground clearance and approach / departure angles; so, we can shift into 4wd and drive over the hurdle. Yes, we wintercamp - often in the snow ... safely with 4wd.

Our secondary roads often get "gumbo" greasy right after a brief rain, good luck even getting your AS + TV moving on the flats without 4wd. See my avatar - we are parked on 4" of ice! Backing up a wet smoothe concrete approach on a hill around here often necessitates a 4wd for my aging skill set. Where we often camp, the dirt access is rutted and filled with water; 4wd gives us that margin of safety or assurance / confidence that makes us like boondocking. Around here with mountains and snow, it is 4wd all the way; if you rarely get off of the tarmac, then 2wd might be a better consideration. Call me when you get stuck and, if in the area, I will pull you out - as I have done countless times.
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