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Old 12-08-2012, 01:34 PM   #99
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Well if you really want some great towing capacity, and don't want to worry about getting stuck, go with 6 wheel drive! A deuce and half will get some real attention at the rally!


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Old 12-08-2012, 01:44 PM   #100
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Well if you really want some great towing capacity, and don't want to worry about getting stuck, go with 6 wheel drive! A deuce and half will get some real attention at the rally!


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...half_truck.gif
What weight distribution hitch would you recommend with that?

Figured I start a real argument, now that we're talking about 4X4 and types of trucks, might as well add hitches to the mix....
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Old 12-08-2012, 01:56 PM   #101
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Well if you really want some great towing capacity, and don't want to worry about getting stuck, go with 6 wheel drive! A deuce and half will get some real attention at the rally!


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Old 12-08-2012, 04:44 PM   #102
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Throwing in my vote for 2wd with some manner of limited slip; viscous coupling is the most seamless for street driving. My off-road Volvo is now equipped with a Detroit Locker; it is bulletproof off road but BANGS loudly when making sharp turns on pavement. If you "know" you'll be in serious snow or off-road, don't agonize, get 4wd. For the fair weather vacationing Airstreamer, 2wd with limited slip is about the best of both worlds.

I've driven early Volvo station wagons (standard pegleg differential) from Panamint to Death valley over Mengel Pass. Except for the "one bad hill" if you're going westbound, I was able to go the whole way without getting stuck; it makes the case for driver skill. The only place I got badly stuck was in deep canyon sand, where a large group of "genteel" 4WDers thoughtfully stopped in a line along the center of the canyon bottom and I had to stop when I didn't plan to. They took their sweet time finishing their little rest stop, then all drove off leaving me buried. After 45 hot minutes of mincing starts and quality time with the collapsible shovel, got moving again and was fine.

Foul weather aside, you wouldn't generally take a nice airstream on roads where you NEED 4wd. A limited slip diff will serve you well in almost all cases with far lower cost.
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Old 12-08-2012, 09:09 PM   #103
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Throwing in my vote for 2wd with some manner of limited slip; viscous coupling is the most seamless for street driving. My off-road Volvo is now equipped with a Detroit Locker; it is bulletproof off road but BANGS loudly when making sharp turns on pavement. If you "know" you'll be in serious snow or off-road, don't agonize, get 4wd. For the fair weather vacationing Airstreamer, 2wd with limited slip is about the best of both worlds.

I've driven early Volvo station wagons (standard pegleg differential) from Panamint to Death valley over Mengel Pass. Except for the "one bad hill" if you're going westbound, I was able to go the whole way without getting stuck; it makes the case for driver skill. The only place I got badly stuck was in deep canyon sand, where a large group of "genteel" 4WDers thoughtfully stopped in a line along the center of the canyon bottom and I had to stop when I didn't plan to. They took their sweet time finishing their little rest stop, then all drove off leaving me buried. After 45 hot minutes of mincing starts and quality time with the collapsible shovel, got moving again and was fine.

Foul weather aside, you wouldn't generally take a nice airstream on roads where you NEED 4wd. A limited slip diff will serve you well in almost all cases with far lower cost.

I am not a fan of limited slip in trucks. They are for sport performance cars and trucks only, IMO. Trucks that work for a living, including towing, need a locker. See the video up thread for my reasoning. A limited slip in that scenario (or a real world equivalent) wil be smoked very quickly and you'll never know it until you need it next time.
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Old 12-09-2012, 07:00 AM   #104
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I am not a fan of limited slip in trucks. They are for sport performance cars and trucks only, IMO. Trucks that work for a living, including towing, need a locker. See the video up thread for my reasoning. A limited slip in that scenario (or a real world equivalent) wil be smoked very quickly and you'll never know it until you need it next time.
There are many gear type limited slips out there now,I had one 20 years ago called truetrac,it worked very good.I had it in the front end of my Chevy truck with a locker in the back.That truck would allow me to go virtually any where I wanted. We would camp on top of sand dunes with beautiful views in every direction.My current Dodge has a rear end with a similiar design.No clunking or other bad habits.There is also the tried and true ARB air lockers,these are selectable from the drivers seat.I have had these in my Jeep for over 10 years,work great and are 100% locked when on 100% free wheeling when turned off
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Old 12-09-2012, 08:00 AM   #105
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Trutrac is really a type of locker. By definition here, a LS is merely a set of clutch discs at a fixed loaded spring pressure.
Agree, there many designs of lockers. Eaton, alone has several (including the trutrac).

You would have to so some serious research to understand exactly what the OEMs have, but to my knowledge, Ram and Ford use limited slip only. Recently, I did hear that Ford may have seen the error of their ways and gone locker, but I don't see the change at quick glance on their site.

The Eaton G80 has been around at least 20 - 25 years.

The Ram site says limited slip....no locker.

The trutrac has the benefit, I believe (been a long time) that it can still differentiate and allow unequal torque to the wheels at the SAME TIME. Perfect for front ends, but pricey, IIRC.
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Old 12-09-2012, 08:42 AM   #106
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(OP) I feel honored my first post has garnered so many post.

I was not trying to set off a firestorm just trying to get some good seat of the pants experience on the need for 4WD over 2WD..

I have read some great post both for and not so much for, it.

it seem to me it kinda like insurance... you hope you never need to use it but are thankful when you need to use it and you have it..

and just like insurance it has a cost, so now i guess "you" have to decide if the cost overhead if worth the couple, three time it might be of use taking in all the expense having the extra parts needed for 4WD.

SO i guess to further along this thread how much extra maintenance and cost are reasonable to expect in buying and maintaining 4WD over 2WD when you main porpoise .. is to not go off-road for the most part..

I do have to admit my experience with roads at campgrounds is limited.. Like i said before we did some tent camping early on with young kids, some 18-20 yrs ago so the roads issues was not a big deal.

I understand that can be a different point of view when towing a 28ft camper on a gravel or dirt road after rain or in a limited traction time of year.

I mean my car now is front wheel drive and i have not gotten stuck in snow or mud but i tend to stay out of mud and keep put during snow.

During my years when driving a big rig i ran into all kinds of weather and know how fast it can change.. now a days with data and online weather you can get a better idea of coming/changing weather.
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Old 12-09-2012, 09:33 AM   #107
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Trutrac is really a type of locker. By definition here, a LS is merely a set of clutch discs at a fixed loaded spring pressure.
Agree, there many designs of lockers. Eaton, alone has several (including the trutrac).

You would have to so some serious research to understand exactly what the OEMs have, but to my knowledge, Ram and Ford use limited slip only. Recently, I did hear that Ford may have seen the error of their ways and gone locker, but I don't see the change at quick glance on their site.

The Eaton G80 has been around at least 20 - 25 years.

The Ram site says limited slip....no locker.

The trutrac has the benefit, I believe (been a long time) that it can still differentiate and allow unequal torque to the wheels at the SAME TIME. Perfect for front ends, but pricey, IIRC.
BTW limited slip is a brand.
My Dodge has a gear type limited slip no clutches.A true locker does not allow a speed dif between axles at any time-same as a spool.The ram is also available with front and rear e-lockers,
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Old 12-09-2012, 11:35 AM   #108
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Sorry, Bob, I disagree, and that's Ok. No need to argue about it. If you can post a model and maybe it's manufacturer youTube, that'd be great.

All the LSes have clutches. Even the OEM production lockers have a clutch pack which is set at a variable tension (see video above). The difference is LS clutches slip at a lower torque input than lockers. Lockers will slip at just below the axleshaft fatigue point. That is, it is a safety valve to keep from snapping an axle. Not so with limited slip.


Again, please see the above videos.
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Old 12-09-2012, 12:02 PM   #109
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Carl, you didn't set off a firestorm; some posters like to create them.

For us, no maintenance ever on many 4WD cars and trucks. That amounts to many hundreds of thousands of miles. One came with faulty 4WD and it was replaced under warranty.

Price—never think about it because we buy 4WD as a necessity in Colorado. But go to Edmond's and other such websites to get MSRP and wholesale prices for all vehicles and options.

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Old 12-09-2012, 12:14 PM   #110
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Carl, you didn't set off a firestorm; some posters like to create them.

For us, no maintenance ever on many 4WD cars and trucks. That amounts to many hundreds of thousands of miles. One came with faulty 4WD and it was replaced under warranty.

Priceónever think about it because we buy 4WD as a necessity in Colorado. But go to Edmond's and other such websites to get MSRP and wholesale prices for all vehicles and options.

Gene
Gene,

Just to clarify:

I presume you meant repair and not maintenance. Just by its nature a 4WD vehicle requires more maintenance, because it has more parts. Two differentials instead of one, a transfer case, and extra drive shaft are just a few of the most significant. There is no disputing that routine maintenance will cost more.

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Old 12-09-2012, 12:16 PM   #111
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Foul weather aside, you wouldn't generally take a nice airstream on roads where you NEED 4wd. A limited slip diff will serve you well in almost all cases with far lower cost.
Agree with this totally-- but.... we do not take our AS on roads where we expect to need 4WD, but then "one never knows, do one?" During our last visit to Natural Bridges NM, the park service staff at the information desk confidently directed us to an "overflow" camping area on BLM land. It wasn't signed, and down such a rotten stretch of rutted, bumpy dirt road that we wound up backing out part way there, a long way. I could just imagine taking a chance and camping down there, anyway, but if it rains those desert roads turn to gumbo. Then good luck getting out.

Of course, we keep the truck in 2WD most times, including on most bumpy dirt roads, where high clearance alone is sufficient. But with a sedan or station wagon? No thanks.

But the main advantage of 4WD for us is simply to drop the trailer at its 2WD-accessible campsite and then have the ability to go off exploring. We try to stick to the roads where the backcountry road atlas suggests they've been graded-- at least once upon a time; but wash-outs, stream-crossings, and tricky bits do occur with some frequency.

We decided we can get by with one all-purpose vehicle as a couple of retirees, and 4WD comes in very handy, just to get in and out of our (steep) driveway in winter. (And "amen" to the desirability of good winter tires.)

Also, maybe the large units come with adequate storage, but with a Bambi, the capped back of our truck is ideal for extra gear, such as canoe paddles, life jackets, camp chairs, auxilliary beer cooler, winter boots and jackets, hibachi, Dutch oven, and what-have-you.

Maybe we'd feel differently if we lived in a year-round mild climate and never left the pavement.
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Old 12-09-2012, 12:16 PM   #112
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Sorry Carl, another vote for no firestorm. The problem is it isn't just as simple as 4wd vs. 2wd anymore.

You need to define how you use the rig. As Gene said, Colorado and deep snow is a different need set than me, for example.

AWD complicates things even further. I've tried to give as much benefit analysis to the varying iterations of each and provide links to help explain.

I have just tried to provide info that a 2WD can be better than a 4WD for some folks with some need sets and can in some circumstances give better performance than some 4WD setups. NON BRAND SPECIFIC.

For me, when I buy, I'll get 4WD (more for the ability to have a low set of gears for awkward positioning) WITH a locker.

Everything is covered then. (except AWD is better for high speed travel, on road, in slick conditions) A few exceptions like auto-trac, which tries to combine AWD benefits with 4WD benefits.
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