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Old 12-17-2010, 06:40 PM   #2157
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Isn't the real questions who is to blame?

If we weren't sucking it down at the fantastic rate of around 400 MILLION gallons per day (can you believe that?), it wouldn't be so expensive, I figger...

But we still think it's always going to be available, so why worry about it?
Hi, if that's the case we should be getting a volume discount, shouldn't we? And I will be gone, before we run out, I'm sure.
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Old 12-18-2010, 11:03 AM   #2158
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OK, Bob, I'll tell my kids that.

Actually, we will probably not run out for a very long time. What is more likely to happen is that prices will eventually rise to the point that most people just won't be able to afford it.

Of course, at that point, "alternate energy" better have been made a huge priority, otherwise, store shelves will start to look pretty bare...
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Old 12-18-2010, 12:58 PM   #2159
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Humans just don't deal with things until there's a major crisis, and then they don't always deal with it very well. Denial may work for some things for a while, but it's terrible planning. I pretty much agree with Aage. After all, Alberta is willing to destroy the NE part of the province to provide us with oil and the US' NE is full of natural gas that can be extracted by poisoning water supplies by hydrofracing. "Fracing" uses all sorts of dangerous and toxic chemicals to open up fissures in shale to extract gas. We've been doing that in parts of Colorado and NM for years.

At present prices for gas in the US, considering inflation, it costs about the same as it did when I first started driving, but as soon as the world economy gets going better, prices will go up and I think the life of this thread is assured. We are falling further and further behind other countries (Germany, China and several others) on renewable technology because oil, gas and coal companies control Congress. I am unsure which language I should learn: Chinese, Portuguese (when Brasil takes over), Canadian, or what?

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Old 12-18-2010, 05:41 PM   #2160
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Isn't the real questions who is to blame?
Now that's an interesting question. To begin with, why should there be any blame? Fuel prices are set by supply and demand (albeit hugely distorted by governments) and current prices simply reflect flat supply and increasing demand. (The astronomical gas prices in some countries are due to taxes, not because gas is somehow rarer there.) There is no reason to blame anybody, aside from the infantile "I-am-not-happy-therefore-someone-is-to-blame".

I am often reminded of a great line in the 1993 novel/movie Rising Sun in which (as I remember) Japan-wise sempai Capt. Connor (played by Sean Connery) says to his kohai Lt. Smith (played by Wesley Snipes) "In Japan, kohai, things work. In this country, when there's a problem, we spend our effort fixing blame. In Japan, they fix the problem."

(In 1993 the Japanese were popularly perceived to be ten feet tall. Now they have reverted to their actual stature and the Chinese are thought to be ten feet tall. The bogeyman du jour is always ten feet tall, but the jour keeps changing.)

There is some truth to that quotation. In the US a great deal of energy is expended on blame because conflict is the country's leading growth industry, encompassing the government, the lawyers, and the media, all of which depend on conflict for their livelihoods.

Whenever the US gets tired of fixing blame and decides to fix the problem of high fuel prices there are proven technological solutions that can be applied. The US has plenty of coal and natural gas that could be converted to motor fuels if need be. These are not new technologies. In WW II the Germans ran their war machine on coal-derived fuels (Fischer-Tropsch process) and in South Africa, Sasol sasol has produced coal- and gas-derived motor fuels for years. I recently read somewhere that China is building a coal-derived fuel plant using the Mobil process which is expected to produce diesel fuel at a production cost of about $1.50 a gallon. (And I suspect that a gas-to-liquid fuel plant would have considerably less environmental impact than, say, a tar sands extraction operation.)

None of this will happen until oil prices get high enough to essentially shut down the US economy, at which point "fixing the problem" would trump the conflict industry. That could happen sooner that we think if OPEC decides to give up on the US dollar that the Fed is printing with such enthusiasm and start pricing their oil in, say, Chinese yuan.

But hopefully that won't happen, so y'all throw another (carbon-neutral) log on the fire, have another eggnog with your choice of (renewable) ethanol in it, and have a merry Christmas!
.
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Old 12-30-2010, 08:34 PM   #2161
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Ouch! Diesel $3.65 per gallon.. $75.00 for 20.49 gallons!
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Old 12-31-2010, 12:29 AM   #2162
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There was a front page article in the local paper that the new fuel efficient vehicles are using less gas, resulting in less gas tax paid causing a state revenue shortage. By buying these fuel efficient vehicles we get to save a buck while helping the planet and we are harming the state. The solution, raise taxes. Ya gotta love it.

Cheers, Dan
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Old 12-31-2010, 12:45 PM   #2163
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in southern alberta canada its 99.9 a liter,so that show make it about 349.6 a us gallon
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Old 12-31-2010, 01:40 PM   #2164
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Smartstream. I dont know where to start. I remember hearing there are over 50 different taxes on a loaf of bread. We are taxed to death. Sal.
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Old 12-31-2010, 01:55 PM   #2165
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There was a front page article in the local paper that the new fuel efficient vehicles are using less gas, resulting in less gas tax paid causing a state revenue shortage. By buying these fuel efficient vehicles we get to save a buck while helping the planet and we are harming the state. The solution, raise taxes. Ya gotta love it.

Cheers, Dan
That does not seem right to me and I think it's just an excuse for The Man to tax us more.

In my simple mind I think of how over the course of years fuel prices rise and there are more and more vehicles on the road so both the per-gallon tax and the total number of gallons sold should be increasing. Maybe that not accurate comparing only from last year, but over 2-3-4 years I would think it is increasing.

Price wise, I have seen diesel at $3.19 to $3.49 in Phoenix lately, with most being $3.29 or $3.39. Unleaded is $2.89 ish most places.
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Old 12-31-2010, 01:55 PM   #2166
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Quote:
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There was a front page article in the local paper that the new fuel efficient vehicles are using less gas, resulting in less gas tax paid causing a state revenue shortage. By buying these fuel efficient vehicles we get to save a buck while helping the planet and we are harming the state. The solution, raise taxes. Ya gotta love it.
Many countries in Europe have a diesel license fee added yearly for this reason.

It costs money to keep up the roads. Some people prefer that such infrastructure be paid for from the income tax, if available; the problem is that this distorts the actual cost of driving and in effect subsidizes road use. This helped clobber the US rail infrastructure, which was expected to pay for itself, while the roads were used by heavy trucks - which didn't pay the full measure of the wear and tear they caused on the roads. The wear on a road is approximately proportional to the 4th power of the axle loads, so if we assume
2000 lbs/axle for a sedan, 6000 lbs for our TV rear axles, and the legal limit of 34000 lbs (drive & trailer axles) for a truck, we see that if
the sedan causes 1 unit of wear, our tow vehicles cause 81 times the wear, and the loaded semi truck causes 65536 times as much. This is probably not realistic - but it is a good indication of the trends, and shows why road use fees should vary by weight.

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Old 12-31-2010, 02:33 PM   #2167
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In 1900 the US had a terrible road system—dirt tracks between towns. During mud season, travel was nearby impossible. An interurban trolley system was developed and became very successful and efficient. Earlier in our history a lot of roads were private tolls roads, but they were insufficient and not particularly well maintained either.

The first autos could not easily travel between towns, but groups like AAA lobbied for good roads. License fees and gas taxes were to pay for them. A modern road system was developed over the next decades and the interurban lines were abandoned—wish we had them now. Efficient communication is essential to a modern economy—roads, rail, canals, internet, phone, are all part of it.

In the present anti-tax climate, it is very hard to increase gas taxes and therefore there is less and less money available to pay for roads. The federal gas tax has been the same for a very long time and with inflation, produces less and less money in today's terms. The same thing happens with many state gas taxes and license fees. Despite more cars, more efficient cars means fewer gallons sold, so less tax revenue.

If you don't want to pay for roads, get used to potholes and crumbling bridges. It may cost you more in suspension repairs, damaged tires and new shock absorbers though.

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Old 02-24-2011, 01:38 PM   #2168
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Cost of Reg. Gas $3.50 and Going up. Havn't looked at Diesel. (Chgo. Burbs)
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Old 02-24-2011, 02:08 PM   #2169
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Old 02-24-2011, 02:10 PM   #2170
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