what a mess - 1st major outing

[tjdonahoe]

I don't take my airstream on any unimproved roads, slowly over improved gravel roads....I don't want it to be shaken apart...

[Drathaar]

I suspect your Airstream dealer is connected to the one I purchased from. I like them, but their prices for dealer installed options are ludicrous. They wanted more than twice what other RV dealers wanted for a solar install. Be prepared to shop around, then negotiate with the AS dealer. They want your business, and will do the work for a reasonable price, but you have to ask.

The damage is another issue. Build the case for warranty, and don't back down if it's truly a manufacturing problem. Be ready to go as high in the AS hierarchy as needed. If it was caused by your negligence, then let insurance deal with it. On rough roads, we go really, REALLY slow. There have been a few loose screw and popped rivet issues, but AS covered them under warranty.

[KJRitchie]

What gravel road in/near Glacier; Polebridge? Traveled that road a few weeks ago. The stretches of that road that are gravel up to Polebridge seem smooth enough even to take a trailer but I don't think there are any campgrounds off that road. Hopefully you didn't try to tow to Kintla or Bowman lakes, those roads are too rough for most towables. Campground host at Bowman did have a Casita and there were a couple of pop ups in the campground.

Road from Babb, MT to Many Glacier entrance is terrible. Parts of it require slowing way down to walking speed. I'm amazed this section of road is in such bad shape. I guess the Blackfeet Nation didn't get any shovel ready job money. Once in the park the road is good for the several miles up to Many Glacier campground.

Kelvin

[OilnH2o]

There is a lot of speculation here with only the original post to go on. You (the OP) might give an update responding to some of the posts. It would be interesting if some of the responses and their assumptions are correct. For example, there is no "Glacier National Forest" but I assume you meant "Glacier National Park." Ten miles inside the park on any of the entrance roads is regular two-lane paved highway - not gravel "forest roads." (Except to Polebridge as Kelvin says above). The bottom line on your dealer issue has been said several times. Airstream Northwest has a pretty good reputation so maybe, as has been suggested, push harder. Now if you really were bouncing around on some back-woods gravel road with potholes and ruts that's different. But those are hard to find in Glacier ("national park"). A lot of what you mention seem to be warranty issues, imo.


Sent from my iPhone using Airstream Forums

[aap]

I will do my best to address all the questions and misc. variables in this response, in sequential order, by the person who responded. We really appreciate all of the detailed information, the old photos are so awesome, hope I didn’t miss anyone – thanks again!!!

* NoResults
I may have misspoke regarding Tires/Lift kit - it was probably more like 2500

* A W Warn
All modifications were done by the dealer, guided no doubt by the same service manager who eagerly took money for the mods, heard our desire to do some forest road stuff, which we haven't, but never told me about the obvious issues with pretty much everything on the interior except the bathroom interestingly enough

* Boxite
Yes, the Microwave just left there not secure is beyond ridiculous...We were versed in proper towing for sure, in small part by the dealer, in larger part by our own research and personal knowledge from other areas in our life...love your Avatar - is that Photo-shopped, we will definitely reinforce the flimsy stuff

* Piggy Bank
I have not talked with the CEO of service just yet, she wasn't in yesterday - I'm not sure what the cost is, but what I expected to hear was don't worry, will take care of it...um, did I mention to say I purchased the extended warranty - I feel like an idiot based on current events - will see how this plays out…it was the Service Manager from Airstream Adventures NW that thought it appropriate to leave me a negative message telling me what they won’t do, not asking to speak to me etc. I provided them with a detailed list of items in Excel, with a column for comments etc

* glcmranger
I will definitely check into the Centramatic Wheel Balancers

* Bill M
The TV was mounted to the wall, the window was locked and both latches bent out, I had to bend them back...I cant say if the lift kit and tires increased roughness, since the dealer installed a "custom lift kit" and tires prior to sale and "tested", I would assume that they would have said something, especially if it meant more money

* Wolfe I agree, the service manager seemed not to care - I would have handled things much differently as opposed to leaving a negative voicemail, having never talked with me directly

* avionstream
We baby the thing and were going reasonably slow, can't tell you my exact speed now, but I can tell you, we saw numerous "inexpensive travel trailers", traveling at much higher rates of speed

* PKI
We have a blue ox weight distribution system, recommended by dealer, we tow with a 2010 f150 4x4 V8, tire pressure a bit under manufacturer recommendations because of the hot weather - thanks for the info on the latches/hardware, we did find this thread very useful

* dasams
Its been a learning lesson for sure - we will definitely beef up wherever possible

* ROBERTSUNRUS
Thanks for the input -

* dwightdi
Mind you we only went 10 miles on the well maintained hwy, while I blame this hwy for the damage, I can see now this isn't really accurate, the hwy may have been the last straw, but all the miles adding up to that point, plus the poor craftsmanship (not even sure that the right word), were actually part of root cause

* ROBERT CROSS
I Agree, thanks for the guidance re: Jacson Center, we agree and won't go away easily - LOVE THE PHOTO...we will definitely make improvements

* avionstream
Are you the Service Manager from Airstream Adventures Northwest? . Seriously though, we went 10 miles up a well maintained state hwy, it was definitely not a forest service road - this being said, when we purchased the trailer, we told the dealer our intention was to take the trailer on "some" forest service roads and that's why they installed "custom lift kit/15 tires" - why would I have any reason to doubt their guidance

* Adventure.AS
Tires were inflated to 45psi, Les Swab did the tires, my assumption is that they were balanced, but I will double check, these folks have always done the right things for me in cars/trucks

* Hamptastic
Will definitely be making some modifications after this thread, its a shame that this stuff isn't addressed at the dealer prior to leaving with the trailer

* GettingAway
Again, don't remember my exact speed, but babying the thing for sure, we were the slowest travel trailer on that road

* Alluminati
Agreed. Please see my reply to Piggy Bank

* tjdonahoe
Yup

* Drathaar
Agreed, and doing just this.

* Alluminati
Agreed. Please see my reply to Piggy Bank

* KJRitchie
State HWY 486, just 10 miles in


Final Thougths
We purchased an Airstream for its reputation of quality, craftsmanship and service...The jury is still out on weather we made the right decision. I keep you folks posted as to what happens with Airstream Adventures NW, its my hope that they will do the right thing - it seems dollar wise, rather than penny foolish.

Thanks again,
Anthony/Angela

[Boxite]

I just retired from a job near the Centramatics company/factory in Alvarado, Tx. They were very friendly and helpful, and quite willing to sell their product in pairs (such as for a single axle) which is not indicated in most advertising.

But they also convinced me that their product, while demonstrably efficient at smoothing-out horribly-balanced wheels at speed....... will not remove the still out-of-balance wheel/tire combination at lower speeds. That will only be addressed by the tire installer, which is when the initial balance should be conducted.

At the speeds rough roads are taken, the centramatics will do little-to-nothing for you because they are not up to sufficient speed to reposition the internal weights effectively.

In short, Centramatics are not to be used in-lieu of proper balancing. However, they can be helpful at higher speeds if a balance-weight is thrown or if a wheel/tire combination has multiple harmonic out-of-balance points. I passed on them and had my wheels dynamically balanced and have had no problems.

My avatar amused me. It is believed to be an actual photograph, but plagiarized. Glad it gave you a smile.

[aap]

Originally Posted by OilnH2o

There is a lot of speculation here with only the original post to go on. You (the OP) might give an update responding to some of the posts. It would be interesting if some of the responses and their assumptions are correct. For example, there is no "Glacier National Forest" but I assume you meant "Glacier National Park." Ten miles inside the park on any of the entrance roads is regular two-lane paved highway - not gravel "forest roads." (Except to Polebridge as Kelvin says above). The bottom line on your dealer issue has been said several times. Airstream Northwest has a pretty good reputation so maybe, as has been suggested, push harder. Now if you really were bouncing around on some back-woods gravel road with potholes and ruts that's different. But those are hard to find in Glacier ("national park"). A lot of what you mention seem to be warranty issues, imo.


Sent from my iPhone using Airstream Forums

By the time stamp it looks like my longwinded response was posted at the exact time for your ask of additional details - I think you should have what you need...i'll keep everyone posted...thank you1

[Toutsi 1957]

Originally Posted by aap

Hey Everyone -

My wife and I have been lurkers on the forum until now - we very much appreciate all of the fine/detailed information we have found to date - thank you all very much. Its our hope that we can/will contribute in some way in the very near future.

We just got back from our 1st major trip, which happens to be the 2nd time we have used our purchased new in Feb of this year, 2015 FB Flying Cloud.
We put a total of 1987 miles from Seattle to Montana. The trip was mostly great with some major disappointments related to, what I consider, manufacturer defects, although the dealer says I need to put these things on insurance - would love to know your thoughts on the following:

Let me start off by saying during purchase, we spent an extra 5k or so on a Lift Kit and 15 rims/tires as we wanted to be able to take the trailer to Alaska and on forest service roads, with RV parks being a last resort.

Well on our first foray on a non-paved, but relatively smooth gravel road, resulted in a wide variety of internal damage - approximately 10 miles up this road in Glacier National Forest - we stopped for lunch and were horrified to find this disaster on the inside:
[*]Microwave was not secured and came out hitting the refrigerator door[*]Refrigerator door bottom plate had come off due to Microwave hit[*]One closet door came completely off[*]One closed door had lost its bottom hinge[*]The TV had come completely out[*]One Window shade came off[*]One of the windows came open and bent the hinges out which secure it[*]2 drawer slid out completely and were laying on the floor


I had my wife pull the trailer when I was in it for a minute and was shocked to see how much EVERYTHING vibrates/moves even on a paved road.

Our assessment (keep in mind this is our 1st trailer), the latches on the cabinets stick, and the hinges come loose...the Microwave wasn't secured at all it was just sitting inside its respective hole, not sure what the heck happened to the TV...I believe the window shade came off due to faulty hinges that keep in place.

Our ask to the forum
We did some searching on the forum and see more than a few folks experienced some heart ache with cabinets, in my mind everything we experienced was due to manufacturing defects, and yet the dealer, Airstream Adventures NW in Covington WA is saying I need to file an insurance claim - this just seems wrong.

Final thoughts
I'm not sure at this point how any of you folks boondock on forest roads or travel off the beaten path - is this a matter of custom modifications on my part...we spoke to another Flying Cloud owner at an RV park outside of Missoula (Jim and Mary's - very nice!!!) she told us that one of their main upper cabinets structures just came off during a trip...do I have the wrong tool for the job?

Thanks in advance for listening and any words of wisdom/guidance.

Anthony/Angela

Your experience has been very disappointing but the airstream trailers and most of other travel trailers are not made for riding on rough roads. The only thing that can travel on rough road with cautions are the truck trailers when properly equipped. Sorry but when I moved from truck trailers to travel trailers I was knowing that and understood that it will no longer be possible to go offroading. You may have to change your lifestile if you keep the Airstream.

[aap]

Originally Posted by Boxite

I just retired from a job near the Centramatics company/factory in Alvarado, Tx. They were very friendly and helpful, and quite willing to sell their product in pairs (such as for a single axle) which is not indicated in most advertising.

But they also convinced me that their product, while demonstrably efficient at smoothing-out horribly-balanced wheels at speed....... will not remove the still out-of-balance wheel/tire combination at lower speeds. That will only be addressed by the tire installer, which is when the initial balance should be conducted.

At the speeds rough roads are taken, the centramatics will do little-to-nothing for you because they are not up to sufficient speed to reposition the internal weights effectively.

In short, Centramatics are not to be used in-lieu of proper balancing. However, they can be helpful at higher speeds if a balance-weight is thrown or if a wheel/tire combination has multiple harmonic out-of-balance points. I passed on them and had my wheels dynamically balanced and have had no problems.

My avatar amused me. It is believed to be an actual photograph, but plagiarized. Glad it gave you a smile.

Thanks for the additional detail on the Centramatics and the photo - I can see it being real, and i'm amazed at the tiny bit of road, bicyclists think its safe to ride on, not to mention the places...

[xrvr]

One very short section of rough road at too fast of speed can cause that much damage.

[Zia]

In our Alaska trip couple years ago we had to travel on gravel roads due to construction. Only casualty: the bottom screws of outer dinnet bench got loose we had to replace them with over size one. The two screws holding the microwave required tightening a couple of times.
I was amazed with the quality and durability of our Airstream
Good luck
Zia

[Bev1940]

I feel sorry for all those folks who finally bought a new AS only to realize it's not what they expected! I would never buy an AS built after 2002. That's when Thor bought AS and the quality has gone rapidly downhill since then. My 1978 is not a posh as a new one but after many thousand miles the only thing I've had an issue with is the bottom cupboard door hinges I replaced them with piano hinges and no problems.

[PKI]

What spring bars - the 750s or the 1000s? How tight did you adjust the weight transfer (how many links from the U-bolt)? Agenda - do you have a soft or stiff TV to Coach connection? The BO will provide a soft connection if adjusted correctly. Not all service techs or owners get it right the first time.

LS likely did a fine job of balancing the wheel and tire assemblies. The Centramatics cancel out any imbalance in the hub, drum, wheel, and tire assembly that is lost by changing tires. However, IMHO the minor balance improvement from Centros would not have prevented this damage.

The 23 tows easily and the F150 V-8 should roll it along nicely, but crossing a bad bump at more than a walk is a problem. You may want to review your speed. Traveling 65 is slow compared to 80, but still moving right along for a trailer. Hitting a bump at 35 can be damaging, but it may seem slow until you see the bump. And if you were really treating the coach with extreme care, then your warranty needs a workout and the dealer needs to step up.

However, sending a spread sheet to the service department is possibly not a good first step in developing the relationship you need. A face to face discussion to investigate the list one by one might help. Have you stood in front of the microwave cabinet with the service manager and inspected it for damage from the securing hardware that they feel was ripped out and you feel was not installed? Might be a good start.

If you can't get satisfaction ... ie they will not talk to you or do not see what you see, go to Bosie, Oregon, or the Bay area dealer - all same group and they all make money from the warranty. If this is a warranty claim, they are not out of pocket.

A bit more review of the TV, window, and storage loading would be a good idea. Did the TV fall off the bracket, or did it swing out on the hanger? Are there fasteners ripped out of the wall, broken fasteners on the bracket, or bent tabs on the bracket? Another poster asked if the window was locked? Most windows have to be pried open to release them from the seal. Understanding what happened is key to resolving it. What was in your closets, hanging clothes or heavy stuff that could pop them open? If only hanging clothes, the presale prep may have bee less than complete. I do not remember a hinge on the blind assembly, so no thoughts there. They are the best blinds we have seen and were part of the reason we purchased a 15. Several slams on several blinds with no ill effect. Sounds like it may have not been attached properly if it was not hit with something.

Hope very much this works out for you. Traveling is so much more fun than feeling frustrated. Glad you had at least some enjoyment on the trip.

Please don't consider the questions a version of the third degree. You really don't have to answer them, just consider the answers in your analysis and make it all work for you. However, we would appreciate an update when you work it all out. The collective learning is a help to all.

Travel safe. Pat

[TheGlen]

When we purchased our new 2014 23 ft we had very similar problems to yours. We took it to the dealer several times after 3 different trips and ALL the repair work was done under factory warranty.
We had problems with the microwave, refrigerator, drawers and cupboards, water pump, fridge fan and sensor for water levels, black and great tank.
We estimate we have about 30,000 miles on the trailer now and aside from needing to replace the tires, fixing the hinges periodically etc., all seems to be ok.
You should definitely start with the dealer and go to the President of Airstream if you don't get satisfaction on these issues.
Good luck.

[Air Apparent]

Originally Posted by Bev1940

I would never buy an AS built after 2002. That's when Thor bought AS and the quality has gone rapidly downhill since then.

I hate it when people say things they know nothing about. Since they say it on the internet it must be true.

THOR was formed in 1980 by THompson and ORthwein to purchase Airstream from Beatrice. The Beatrice conglomerate was so desperate to sell Airstream that they loaned the total amount to the buyers (THOR) to make the purchase happen. Thompson and Orthwein were so successful in running Airstream that they had paid off the loan to purchase Airstream in 18 months.

Airstream was the first company owned by Thor.

So according to BEV1940 everything produced by Airstream since 1980 must be junk.

[aap]

Originally Posted by PKI

What spring bars - the 750s or the 1000s? How tight did you adjust the weight transfer (how many links from the U-bolt)? Agenda - do you have a soft or stiff TV to Coach connection? The BO will provide a soft connection if adjusted correctly. Not all service techs or owners get it right the first time.

LS likely did a fine job of balancing the wheel and tire assemblies. The Centramatics cancel out any imbalance in the hub, drum, wheel, and tire assembly that is lost by changing tires. However, IMHO the minor balance improvement from Centros would not have prevented this damage.

The 23 tows easily and the F150 V-8 should roll it along nicely, but crossing a bad bump at more than a walk is a problem. You may want to review your speed. Traveling 65 is slow compared to 80, but still moving right along for a trailer. Hitting a bump at 35 can be damaging, but it may seem slow until you see the bump. And if you were really treating the coach with extreme care, then your warranty needs a workout and the dealer needs to step up.

However, sending a spread sheet to the service department is possibly not a good first step in developing the relationship you need. A face to face discussion to investigate the list one by one might help. Have you stood in front of the microwave cabinet with the service manager and inspected it for damage from the securing hardware that they feel was ripped out and you feel was not installed? Might be a good start.

If you can't get satisfaction ... ie they will not talk to you or do not see what you see, go to Bosie, Oregon, or the Bay area dealer - all same group and they all make money from the warranty. If this is a warranty claim, they are not out of pocket.

A bit more review of the TV, window, and storage loading would be a good idea. Did the TV fall off the bracket, or did it swing out on the hanger? Are there fasteners ripped out of the wall, broken fasteners on the bracket, or bent tabs on the bracket? Another poster asked if the window was locked? Most windows have to be pried open to release them from the seal. Understanding what happened is key to resolving it. What was in your closets, hanging clothes or heavy stuff that could pop them open? If only hanging clothes, the presale prep may have bee less than complete. I do not remember a hinge on the blind assembly, so no thoughts there. They are the best blinds we have seen and were part of the reason we purchased a 15. Several slams on several blinds with no ill effect. Sounds like it may have not been attached properly if it was not hit with something.

Hope very much this works out for you. Traveling is so much more fun than feeling frustrated. Glad you had at least some enjoyment on the trip.

Please don't consider the questions a version of the third degree. You really don't have to answer them, just consider the answers in your analysis and make it all work for you. However, we would appreciate an update when you work it all out. The collective learning is a help to all.

Travel safe. Pat

Hey Pat - all good points and happy to answer all questions - we want to learn and help others as well.

Not sure if we have the 750s or 1000s for spring bars, I'll find out - We had no problem with the external "feel of towing" everything was nicely balanced, the Blue Ox had 3.5 links showing (if I understand the question correctly), but I would say it definitely felt stiff, though never did I think that this thing feels wrong or odd, it towed smoothly - how does one determine whether the connect is too loose or too stiff - is this something I could feel with my hands or based on how the thing feels while under tow?

Interestingly enough, I had my wife drive around the RV park with me in trailer to experience life on the inside, I was shocked at how much vibration was happening inside - I had heard towing one of these babies, is like a home going through a major earthquake, I understand why now

We dropped off the trailer on the day after our return to Montana, we expected to talk face to face with the CEO of the Service dept. but she was out at the time we arrived

The intention behind the spreadsheet was to make sure I didn't forget anything and that the service dept. didn't forget as well - the dealer is a fair drive from home, so we got what we got.

I did get a call from the CEO and we went over the list on the phone, she didn't seem to have a problem at the time, and really not sure why the Service Manager seemed so hostile or non-caring.

My best guess on the TV was the closet door hit it in flight causing it to come out of the wall-mount which it was properly secured to, and the actual TV was shattered on the floor.

The closet had some clothes and other items, but generally packed pretty lightly... the closet door latch, which we had problems with previously was in a locked open position, not sure how this happens besides they stick - I mean, it happened when the trailer was in my driver as well (the latches sticking). Under tow I imagined the closet came open and was hanging by the hinges until it gave way.

The shade is a mystery - it came of at the points that it was secured to the unit - they are the same shades you speak of.


I'm hoping the dealer will do the right thing, its the only thing that makes sense really, because even if they only loose me as a customer they will have done themselves a disservice - I'm already thinking about other dealers for sure.

We were going very slow on this road, babying the thing...I can't believe we were going more than 20mph, but I can't say for sure - I don't think this one road was the culprit - its the same answer to how many BBs does it take to sink a battleship, the answer is 1, the last 1 . So while I was focused on the well maintained state hwy, I'm thinking it was simply the last BB

Thanks for all the info - very much appreciated!

Anthony/Angela

[dkottum]

I agree Airstreams are built as highway travelers, the mountings are just screws into the walls, hinges and fasteners are essentially household hardware. We have had nothing come loose in five year of extensive travel around the country on various highways, many roads not that great but it has all held together.

I would begin by evaluating the suspension mod and see what it has done to it's range of travel and flexibility. Then tire pressure and balance, hitch flexibility and adjustment, and amount and balancing of truck and trailer loads.

[MarkFinATX]

Originally Posted by PKI

Background -

It takes a very rugged trailer to travel unpaved forest service roads. Reference the construction of the Fire Service vehicles.

We have about 23Kmiles on our 2015 FC23FB. The travel included some very rugged paved roads, but we did not experience any significant interior movement until we drove the back roads in New Hampshire and Maine where the frost heave does considerable damage to the road surface.

Drawers will fall out under spirited driving conditions, if they are heavily loaded. We have had this occur on two occasions and now secure the drawers, closet doors and refrigerator door when traveling. The closet door hinges will pop loose if the release button is activated by an internal item. The screws that hold the hinges can be pulled out if the door is heavily impacted. We have a latch that failed. Required new longer screws.

The microwave - not sure about that one. It is not a heavy unit and there is a facia that should have held the unit in place. If there is no indication of fasteners pulled out, then you should be having a serious conversation with the service manager.

The TV can be difficult to correctly secure if you do not pay strict attention to the engagement of the locking pin. Other than that, no clue as we have had no issues and the coach has been over some rough roads.

Potential solutions -

We did install the Centramatics. If your dealer changed out the wheels and tires and did not balance the complete wheel package including the drum and hub assembly, you may well have an out of balance condition.

We run the 15 in tires at about 40 PSI. The weight of the 23 does not require high inflation pressure in the tires.

There is also a possibility that your weight distribution hitch is stiffer than necessary. What hitch are you using? What weight bars are you using? What pressure do you run on the tow vehicle?

A rig is the sum of the parts and performance is tuned with a lot of different adjustments. So you may need to optimize a few.

You may also need to slow considerably when you travel rough roads.

Good luck with your development. Sorry to hear of your issues. Please continue to post your progress to help with the education of others.

Edit - search out the thread where Switz comments on the improved latches and hardware he installed. Might well be worth your time.

Travel safe. Pat

Great advice Pat!!! We bought the Pendleton and run the tire pressure on the 16" Michelins at the recommended 80 PSI- It took some trial and error to adjust the weight distribution bars on the Hensley, and a shorter tow bar to get level- F-150, V-8 gasser pulls it nicely. To much tension on the bars= mega bouncy trailer.
We've had a vanity mirror tear out the latch and a pull out microwave open but no damages. Email the service manager at your dealership and copy the AS regional rep. Call CS in Jackson Center and get the email address for the National Customet Service Manager. You will get some results!

Happy Trails!

[ldireland]

My wife and I are proud owners of a 2003 Classic 30. We have traveled many bad highways but have never gone off road. It is my opinion that Airstream builds a superior product and will out live any of the competition by many miles snd years. As an owner we need to take responsibility for the things that we have control of like (1) the weight of items carried in sliding drawers (2) the way we hitch the trailer (3) how we adjust the weight distribution bars (4) how we handle trailer sway (5) how we adjust the trailer brakes. Any one of these responsibilities overlooked can cause numerous problems. Before you blame the trailer or it's maker one should examine these key areas of responsibility. Then consider the competition and how inferior their building procedures are compared to Airstream. We know...we have evolved through the competition snd trust me...Airstream has every one of the beat hands down.

[xrvr]

Originally Posted by ldireland

My wife and I are proud owners of a 2003 Classic 30. We have traveled many bad highways but have never gone off road. It is my opinion that Airstream builds a superior product and will out live any of the competition by many miles snd years. As an owner we need to take responsibility for the things that we have control of like (1) the weight of items carried in sliding drawers (2) the way we hitch the trailer (3) how we adjust the weight distribution bars (4) how we handle trailer sway (5) how we adjust the trailer brakes. Any one of these responsibilities overlooked can cause numerous problems. Before you blame the trailer or it's maker one should examine these key areas of responsibility. Then consider the competition and how inferior their building procedures are compared to Airstream. We know...we have evolved through the competition snd trust me...Airstream has every one of the beat hands down.

Very well stated. Thanks