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Old 12-02-2009, 08:22 AM   #15
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If you "reach for it" when they have the "drop" on you...that aint so smart.

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Old 12-02-2009, 08:55 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by gaylejoe View Post
A ski mask and weapon were recovered... Since they not adults they could not be arrested... The membership park could not ask them to leave because neither had been convicted of the offense....
Wow! I think I would have had to change my pants... You sure were lucky they weren't older and maybe more prone to have physically assaulted you. Looks like you handled it right, though.

As to the police not being able to arrest the kids, that seems to be a snow job... kids are arrested all the time and taken to juvi-hall for alot less than armed assault/robbery. Also, if a restaurant can do "No Shoes, No Shirt, No Service...", an RV park can dang sure boot those punks out. I've seen parks ask people to leave because of too much noise and otherwise rude behavior.

Sounds like maybe the kids had connected parents...? Sure seems like they're being protected...

Bill & Kim
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Old 12-02-2009, 09:37 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Foiled Again View Post
Wasp spray isn't a fool proof "weapon" but ..."


I'm thinking you're referring to pepper spray? If so, it can be very effective, but that varies with each target. Some people have a greater tolerance than others, so it can take longer to to take effect. It also depends on how it's delivered. If it's the stream type spray, it takes more accuracy, and typically takes longer to take effect than the aerosol type. With the aerosol type you don't have to be as accurate, but you may get a dose yourself if the wind is blowing, or you're in close quarters.

- A colleague of mine had a small stream type canister that she used as a key chain which she kept in her pocket. She was assaulted at an ATM, and managed to spray the assailant. It took effect, but not before she was decked, and the assailant got about 50 yards down the street with her purse.

- Circumstances led to one of my officers having to open up a can of aerosol type into a camper (suspect was going for a weapon). He got a slight exposure due to a cross draft which blew some spray out the screen door. Fortunately, it worked out well because he had been sprayed in training, so he knew the effects, and the suspect got a full dose and was incapacitated.

If it is pepper spray we're talking about, if possible, get a reputable name brand, and preferably the police/security grade with at least 5% oleoresin capsicum(OC). Don't buy it at a hardware store (like my colleague), or a department store.

I've been sprayed with all types and percentages, and from experience can say the 10% doesn't hurt much worse than the 5%, but it lasts longer. I prefer the aerosol type, but one must be mindful of the surroundings, and the wind direction.

Before retirement, I was an OC spray instructor, weaponless defense instructor, and a firearms instructor (pistol, revolver, and shotgun). Guess which one of these defenses I would rely on.

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Old 12-02-2009, 09:55 AM   #18
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I vote shotgun!
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Old 12-02-2009, 11:50 AM   #19
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This is a tough issue to come up with a good answer for everyone. Personnally I carry several weapons when we travel. I have a concealed weapons permit. If you are considering carrying a weapon including pepper sprays or high voltage shocking devices that you check your local laws about having a weapon legally. Even though I have considerable experience with weapons including a law enforcement background. It was mandatory that I take and pass a concealed weapons training course in order to apply for my permit. The course designed by the NRA and taught by a certified instructor was enlightening and very beneficial. I recommend anyone considering carry a deadly weapon to take the course even if you don't get a concealed weapon permit. Most local gun clubs or shooting ranges offer them. Also my permit is honored reciprocally by 38 other states which is handy when traveling. I have been held at gun point in the past and illegally carried a defense gun for years because of that. It is a big responsibility and literally a life or death decision. The negatives are terrible to contemplate. In the instance of this thread if that was me sitting in my vehicle with someone threatening me with a gun I would have shot them on the spot and had to live with the knowledge for the rest of my life that I killed or harmed a stupid kid with a toy gun. On the other side of the question is last year I had a friend shot and killed, his wife shot three times and crippled, their friends wife killed and the next door neighbor shot by a nut case that accosted them in their own driveway as they getting ready to leave in their RV. The guy drove away and then committed suicide a few minutes later. This was in an upscale suburban neighborhood in Colorado. You never know when you can use some insurance.
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Old 12-02-2009, 12:52 PM   #20
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Thanks for the replys. Since could make a positive identification and the suspects had left the area the officers could not arrest them. The only thing I could see was the area around their eyes. Both were wearing full face ski masks.

The reason the park took no action was the threat of law suits if in case it was the wrong persons. I will say the evidence is very strong against the 2 boys. The ski mask was going to be tested for DNA and that can tie it to one of the boys.

We will go back to the park again and not let this spoil all the wonderful times we have had there. There is a great group of people there and we enjoy being with them.

There are a lot of people who do not have cell phones for one reason or another. One of my points was, in my opinion, the importance of having a cell phone. In our case there was no other form of communication. During this incident our cell was worth its weight in gold. There is some security just being able to talk with someone in these situations. In our case the shieriff's dispatcher kept my wife on the line untill the officer arrived.

All of us have to be aware of our surroundings anywhere we go.
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Old 12-02-2009, 01:32 PM   #21
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What a frightening situation. We are glad it resulted in no harm to the two of you.

We are flabbergasted that 14 & 15 year olds were not arrested, or at least taken in for questioning, for an attempted armed robbery. We are wondering in what state this occurred, and if the failure to arrest had something to do with the lack of a juvenile detention facility in that area. Generally, juveniles cannot be housed with adults, and counties that don't have these facilities have to transport detained juveniles to one. State statutes are probably available online. We would be finding out.

These kids sound very dangerous. We would also be addressing with the sheriff or police chief the responding officers leaving them on the street to potentially retaliate against you and/or accost and harm others. We would also never return to a campground that used such a lame excuse to NOT evict them from the premises.

Doug is well-trained and would not travel without a weapon, unless we are flying and/or going overseas. Thankfully, he has never had to use it.
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Old 12-02-2009, 01:32 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by gaylejoe View Post

There are a lot of people who do not have cell phones for one reason or another. One of my points was, in my opinion, the importance of having a cell phone. In our case there was no other form of communication. During this incident our cell was worth its weight in gold. There is some security just being able to talk with someone in these situations. In our case the shieriff's dispatcher kept my wife on the line untill the officer arrived.
Cell phones indeed should be one of the "tools in your toolbag". However, unless you have a means of defending yourself, many times, sadly, it merely gets the police to the scene of a persons death a little quicker. One of the most grim examples of this is Virginia Tech. I am quite certain there were many students and teachers on the line with a 911 dispatcher, but the fact of the matter is, the douchebag murdered 31 people and off'd himself before the police even got there. Just because the 911 operator is on the line with someone does not mean a crime in progress is going to just stop.

Originally Posted by gaylejoe View Post
All of us have to be aware of our surroundings anywhere we go.
Quoted for truth.
This is the first line of defense against being the victim of crime.
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Old 12-02-2009, 02:27 PM   #23
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Packing heat?

To pack or not to pack, that is the question. I certainly can understand having a weapon in your trailer. But, consider this incident. It was dark, you were surprised by these two kids. If your gun was inside the trailer, you would be in the same situation. The logic would lead you to carrying 24/7 and even then, if they surprise you, you are no better off. So, the only way to be absolutely sure of your safety would be to arm yourself and sit with your back to the trailer hopefully with your gun drawn.

Sounds rather silly, doesn't it? My problem with carrying is that it often gives you the idea that you are now "safe". Unless you have the weapon out in plain sight, these two kids would have still done what they did. How would that have played out? This isn't the movies, you know.

Personally, I agree with the cell phone idea and it is very important to always be aware of your surroundings. If it came down to it, I would be willing to give up my money (and tools too) in order the make sure that my grand kids still had a grandpa at the end of the trip.
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Old 12-15-2009, 03:59 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by aftermath View Post
My problem with carrying is that it often gives you the idea that you are now "safe". Unless you have the weapon out in plain sight, these two kids would have still done what they did. How would that have played out?
The best available statistics on robbery attempts show that the victim is least likely to be injured if they respond with overwhelming force, and most likely to be injured if they refuse to comply without having overwhelming force at their disposal. Simply complying with the robber's demands falls somewhere in between.

In a robbery attempt the assailant expects the victim to reach for a wallet. This expectation can be used to the victim's advantage when reaching for a weapon. It is rare for it to be necessary for shots to be fired.

I would imagine that, had gaylejoe produced a weapon in response to the robbery attempt, the assailants would have departed the area immediately in search of clean underwear and no shots would have been fired.

Comment regarding the necessity of carrying 24x7

Everyone makes tradeoffs. I know several people (some in law enforcement, some now), who carry all the time. Others carry when they believe the danger outweighs the various drawbacks.

In most states, it's up to the individual to choose.
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Old 01-15-2010, 07:47 AM   #25
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Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6!
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Old 01-15-2010, 08:21 AM   #26
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IMO a BB gun IS DEFINITELY a weapon...amazing the harm they can inflict.

I was in road sales for 12 years, and did carry a 9mm. My problem was always in knowing when I should wear it...because putting it in your purse is a useless won't get to it in time. Having it sitting in a glove box will just provide a gun for a car was broken into by a crackhead and he stole my gun from the glovebox. I came out, saw him, called police; we got him, but he had already hidden the weapon and it was never found. I'm MORE than sure he returned to retrieve it.

If you don't weant to carry it, don't take it. Won't do you any good locked up.

Had I stayed on the road I probably would have had to feel like I had to wear a holster and have the darn thing on at night. Fun, huh? A lot of hoo-ha and a lot of responsibility.

With camping I don't see how we can NOT realize the need for protection. I'm not talking about cellular phones..they are a given. I'm talking about the weapon. I guess we have to examine our own comfort levels, with a strong dose of reality.
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Old 01-15-2010, 08:49 AM   #27
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Kimber Mfg recently ran an advertisment in the NRA's American Rifleman for a "professional non-lethal self defense tool" that sprays a stream of 10% oleoresin capsicum (pepper spray) at 90 mph toward the target.The device is made in Switzerland and has two seperate charges of the product with an effective range of 2-13 feet. A nylon case is available for the device and we plan to mount it in the book rack by the door of our Airstream.
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Old 01-15-2010, 08:57 AM   #28
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We pack, primarily as a result of some close calls with toothy wildlife. The only problem is that we haven't been able to find the thing for the last couple of years. Just as well. I can't hit the broad side of a barn with it anyway.


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