The Retromobile Creamed a Mercedes

[vswingfield]

Originally Posted by Eaglemate

I think my vote is "brakes weren't working as they should". There was no braking action on the pavement - none. Naturally, that removes personal responsibility and I'd certainly have a good motive to conclude that but I don't think taking into account a perfect safety record over 25 years in cars, motorcycles and planes shows poor driving practices.

Think nonetheless I'll take the rig to a large parking lot and practice a little. Thanks again ya'll.

First, glad that you're OK. That's the most important thing.

However, I don't see that the brakes weren't working as they should completely removes personal responsibility. It's your responsibility to see that things are working correctly. Given that, I realize that mechanical failure can occur at any time.

It has been my understanding that whenever you (me, or anyone) hit someone else in the rear, it is your fault. You were not allowing adequate distance to control your vehicle. After all, we need to be able to stop when required for safety reasons, such as being stopped by the police because of an accident, and still be safe from someone hitting us in the rear.

But, as always, things happen in real life. I'm just glad we're talking about it online instead of reading about a tragedy. Given your record, you're probably good for another 25 years now.

As far as hitting the trailer brakes manually, it might have helped. Given how fast it happened, though, I doubt if anyone could have reached up and found the manual control in time.

[TouringDan]

Eaglemate

Some additional comments:

1. You did not hydroplane. This is not possible at 10-15 mph. A good guideline for the hydroplaning speed is 10 times the square root of the tire pressure.

2. You may have a pristine driving record with cars, bikes and airplanes, but towing a trailer is a whole new ballgame. I suspect you don't have much experience towing a trailer. Like everything else, you will get better at it with experience.

3. I do believe riding a mc is very helpful though as you have to drive very defensively to survive. This skill is completely transferable.

4. I like dznf0g's take on driving while towing.

5. I am sure the dialog on this thread has been helpful to all the readers. Kind of reminds me of the "pilot error" column that I used to read in a flying magazine when I was taking flying lessons.

Thanks for the learning experience.

Dan

[TouringDan]

Eaglemate

Re-reading your last post, what you thought was hydroplaning was probably you sliding into the vehicle because your brakes had locked up. As you know sliding friction is not as good as rolling friction. I suspect your tv has antilock brakes, so the sliding would have been from your trailer brakes locking up. This would indicate that your trailer brakes had adequate braking capacity and that you were probably going too fast for the conditions and locked up the trailer brakes in your attempt to stop quickly.

Did you notice if your trailer had slid to the right or left of your tv, or was it still precisely behind the tv?

Dan

[Eaglemate]

Yes, perhaps hydroplane is the incorrect word. The brakes locked up.

Dan, the trailer did not swerve. It was right behind.

Now, about "hitting someone in the rear end and fault". This is not always the fault of the rear vehicle. I am a human factors trial specialist, and have worked two legal cases wherein the interstate vehicle is not meeting the minimum speed on the interstate under the posted state statutes. The fault was attributed to the slower/stopped vehicle under the premise that the expectation is that traffic is moving.

Example: Tractor trailer hits small truck travelling 35 MPH with furniture in the rear of the truck on the interstate. Fault is assigned to the smaller, slower moving vehicle under statute law.

While it is assumed the theory of "see and avoid" applies, extending to absolute personal responsibility, the law recognizes there are certain circumstances where an unnecessary hazard has been created so that every precaution would not have resulted in a different outcome and the fault therein lies with the vehicle creating the hazard, regardless of the reasonableness of the reduced/stopped speed.

Translation: Sometimes a person does something so ill-advised that in theory, no evasive action would have resulted in a different outcome.

[A W Warn]

Originally Posted by TouringDan

Eaglemate

Some additional comments:

1. You did not hydroplane. This is not possible at 10-15 mph. A good guideline for the hydroplaning speed is 10 times the square root of the tire pressure.

Dan

not completely correct. not tire pressure, but pressure on the tire is how the calculation is done. something light in weight will hydroplane easier than something heavy.

there are other types of hydroplaning. check this out: Aquaplaning - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Eaglemate]

Condoluminum, thank-you for this. What it boils down to is plain old physics. On wet pavement, the momentum of a heavy, moving vehicle (whether 10 or 15 mph) moving onto a vehicle stopped in the road that suddenly appears (from swerving cars out of the line of sight), precludes stoppage.

[perryg114]

Legalities aside the wreck could have been prevented by being more than one car length behind the car in front of you. If for some reason you cannot maintain that distance slow down or stop till you can.

I had a wreck in my Ranger in the rain a few years back. I was not pulling a trailer but my truck was empty and one of my rear tires had just been patched and it had way too much air in it and no traction. I changed lanes to avoid a slow moving vehicle and started to fish tail. I was not able to recover and ended up yawing back and forth so bad that my front bumper caved in the door of the vehicle I just passed but I was still in my lane. I finally applied the brakes and slid off the side of the road coming just shy of going off the mountain. There was also a coating of oil on the road that made it real slick.

What did I learn, slow down and pay attention. Apply the brakes sooner when in a similar situation before it got to the point it did. Make sure all my tires have the proper inflation. There were contibuting circumstances but it was my fault. I screwed up. There are lots of times I avoided accidents by paying attention. Yes maybe it was the other guy's fault but does it matter. You are still out time and money not to mention misery involved in dealing with all the associated BS.


Perry

[Bill M.]

Surely the Mercedes is not at fault here. Did you get a ticket? If so, for what? Will the insurance companies just resolve the issue and decide who is going to pay for what?
There seems to be the perception that if one drives perfectly there will be no collisions. But the problem is that drivers (and policemen) if I see where this could be headed here are not perfect, and often only have a partial grasp of what is happening while they are making immediate decisions.
Most accidents are probably avoidable in hindsight or in a computer simulation. It is good to try to be as safe as possible.

But the decision to drive (and especially, I think, to tow) also is a decision to expose oneself to the possibility that one may be involved in or cause an accident that injures other parties.

[Foiled Again]

Dear Eaglemate - THANK YOU for sharing your experience. I'm glad you're around to share it. Your willingness to be attacked by the smug and/or judgmental (Hasn't happened to them YET) may help someone else avoid an accident.

All others - Judgment is good... judgmental, not so much.

Over 20 years ago a dear friend of mine was driving in L.A. and swerved into a left lane to avoid a crash that happened right in front of her. That crash happened because a truck driving in the left lane saw a wreck ahead and swerved RIGHT - and right into another car. The driver in the left lane, who had a small sportscar got OUT of his car and walked behind it for some reason - Mary slammed into the man and his rear bumper. It took the man's legs off at the kneecap, Mary got a bad concussion even though she was wearing a seatbelt (no airbag). She saw the carnage "she created". She hasn't recovered yet - PTSD and guilt! Don't pile on! Eaglemate has imagined every possible scenario in his head already.

Paula

[Eaglemate]

Skater, "nasty" not implied. I listen to opinions and thoughts of thousands of focus jurors each year, and take no offense. All the information is helpful. I cull through it and ultimately figure out a) what I can do to lessen risk in both conditions and mechanically b) my role and necessary changes c) role of physics.

It all helps.

[Eaglemate]

Foiled, there will always be a defensive attribution group. Simply put, these people assign blame to the human (instead of the circumstance) because it effectively innoculates them from the randomness of the occurrence. In other words, if they can assign blame (regardless that the science may conflict with that opinion) then it doesn't feel so vulnerable.

It's just human nature. I don't take offense.

Ultimately my question has been answered, and that is to help me see the situation not as I see it, but as everyone else sees it. Only in that way can I consider all the perspectives (not just mine), and ultimately come to a conclusion that helps.

It may be that I decide in the end that it was just a matter of physics, and I could not have had a different result short of stopping on the interstate, which compromises my own safety and liability.

It may be that I decide that my brakes aren't adjusted right.
Or I didn't apply them to get the best braking effect.
Or rain simply raises the risk that unforseen circumstances arise and I may elect to not compromise my Retromobile and try to keep out of rain and fog when possible.

Thanks for the thoughts. Always appreciated.

[Eaglemate]

Bill, yep, probably so. The officer states he was trying to get the Mercedes to move into the left lane, and the Mercedes decided to stop.

It's in violation of the state statute for minimum speed.

[Eaglemate]

Perry, factually, I was two car lengths behind the stopped automobile.

You may not have read the fact pattern, but I was traveling behind two cars, one of whom had moved into my lane quickly (thereby closing the appropriate distance I routinely maintain), then vacated simultaneously with the second car shortly thereafter (within seconds) when they approached the stopped Mercedes.

The visibility was not good, and the stopped car had no flashers. In defense of the cars in front of me, I expect one really could not perceive it was stopped (It was in park, no brake lights) until it registered mentally that the closure rate was too rapid, as opposed to seeing brake lights.

[mwells4654]

I am very happy no one was hurt. I think I will try emergency braking in my Overlander on dry and then wet pavement when I get it on the road next year. I always leave more distance between myself and the vehicle in front of me when the weather is bad and the worse the weather the more distance I leave. But, I did wind up in a ditch last year in a snow storm (not pulling my trailer). I was driving about 10-15mph down a country road (had just put 4 small bales of hay in back of truck for traction), no one in front and no one behind. A local rancher decided it was time to try and get out of his drive. He came down his drive and did not even see me, I swerved and missed him but went into the ditch. Luckly the ditch was shallow and I went in and back out with no damage. I was lucky that time. knock on wood.

Anyway, thanks for sharing. I am deifnately going to try the breaking test in dry and wet road.

[Stefrobrts]

My husband and I have had similar situations many times on the highways around here. Someone will stop to turn left, the car in front of us swerves right to go around that guy, and you find yourself rapidly approaching a completely stopped car with very little warning. I could easily see this accident happening to ourselves.

Glad you're ok!

[DKB_SATX]

Originally Posted by Eaglemate

The visibility was not good, and the stopped car had no flashers. In defense of the cars in front of me, I expect one really could not perceive it was stopped (It was in park, no brake lights) until it registered mentally that the closure rate was too rapid, as opposed to seeing brake lights.

Stopped in a traffic lane, no brake lights or hazard lights and in park?

If these can be established as facts, the worst case would probably be split liability between you. While the Mercedes driver may be able to argue that he thought the officer directed him to stop (rather than move to another lane as you quote the officer as stating) he cannot argue that it's safe to stop on the highway without at least displaying brake lights, preferably hazard flashers.

I have a habit in traffic of activating my hazard flashers if traffic ahead causes me to stop or slow significantly. Sound like the Mercedes owner should have done likewise.

[Eaglemate]

DKB, yes. And I like that suggestion.

The situation got worse, now that you mention it. My trailer was stuck in the right lane of traffic b/c the officer would not allow me to move it to the side of the road (though the damage to both vehicles was basically paint damage to bumpers).

I knew I was a sitting duck for a tractor trailer who could not stop. I had to argue with the officer to allow me to move out of the lane. He refused, but he did finally move his cruiser behind me with lights on.

That was satisfactory.

[DaveFL]

Some of our highways have barrels of water protecting bridge pilons in new construction areas, first time for using an airstream that way. One of the few advantages of MH, better view of road ahead, but just as difficult to stop. Hate it when my assured clear distance is compromised by vehicles cutting in front. My foot would have been on the brake when he cut in, maybe shortening the reaction time after his second move. BUT that is second guessing after the fact, which we are all doing giving these opinions.

[Road Ruler]

Originally Posted by Stefrobrts

My husband and I have had similar situations many times on the highways around here. Someone will stop to turn left, the car in front of us swerves right to go around that guy, and you find yourself rapidly approaching a completely stopped car with very little warning. I could easily see this accident happening to ourselves.

Glad you're ok!

I was in the same boat. Slippery snow covered city road and two cars in front of me changed lanes to pass a slow moving Honda. The two young girls in the Honda were crawling along looking for a house number. I had no chance of stopping and rear ended the Honda. No one hurt. Even though the Honda had no signals, brake lights, or flashers on I was blamed 100%. The young male cop apparently took a fancy to the young gal driving the car....

[Mike Leary]

Originally Posted by DKB_SATX

I have a habit in traffic of activating my hazard flashers if traffic ahead causes me to stop or slow significantly.

Ditto, if I percieve traffic slowing down, on go the four-ways. I also put my arm out the window to warn idiots that are not paying attention.