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Old 09-30-2015, 12:44 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by AWCHIEF View Post
When someone comes out with a fully electric vehicle that is reasonably priced, can carry extra camp equipment in the back, safely tow 6000 pounds, get an honest 500 miles between charges and can be quickly recharged at a campground power post I will consider it as a possible option. Until then they are nothing but expensive feel good toys.
I'd settle for a "safer" alternative to the VW microbus camper that could travel 200 miles between charges. Of course, with all the "safety" equipment and options viewed as absolute necessities today it would weigh twice as much and cost 10 times as much and no way we'd put up with the low HP engines of the past. However, it would get me from point a-b every day of traveling or commuting with time in between to "see more and do more" between charges. Or, alternatively we could shave weight off today's travel trailer offerings. Think pre-1971 weights or better. Do we really NEED a 6000lb++ trailer and more camping equipment in the back?
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Old 09-30-2015, 01:06 PM   #30
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There seems to be a lot of misinformation being disseminated in this thread. As a Tesla Model S owner, I'd like to set a few things straight.

First, let's put to bed the misinformation that an EV is just as polluting as an ICE (internal combustion engine) vehicle. It's not. In the state of Kentucky, which gets 93% of its power from burning coal, the Model S generates close to HALF the emissions of a comparable ICE vehicle.



It's a pure myth that EVs are remotely close to being as polluting as ICE vehicles when the vast majority of power is generated from fossil fuels. Another aspect that most people don't consider is this: As the grid gets cleaner and more electricity is generated using sustainable methods, all EVs relying on that power instantly become cleaner. ICE vehicles continue to pollute at the same, increased levels for the entire life of the vehicle. That's a MAJOR advantage to EVs.

Another aspect of owning an EV that is not appreciated by non-EV owners is that the car is always "full" every morning. There is no need to take any time out of your day to charge over 95% of the time you use this car because it charges when you aren't using it and delivers full range when you do. Imagine if your gasoline cars refilled themselves overnight while you were sleeping - wouldn't that be a game changer?

Regarding range, my car has a 250 mile range. Over 80% of Americans drive fewer than 60 miles per day. My longest days can often be 100-120 miles of appointments from one end of the valley to the other. I have no range issues. I drove to San Diego recently from Phoenix, no issues whatsoever - I spent 30 minutes charging along the way and plugged-in when I reached my destination. I also completed a 1,400 mile road trip almost a year ago, and I used Tesla's Superchargers the whole way.

Tesla now has over 300 Superchargers in the US alone. Tesla's Superchargers charge at an incredible rate of 120,000 watts (120 kW). This gives the Model S a 150 mile charge in only 20 minutes. Most people, when driving long distances, will take a break after driving 3-4 hours. The car's range and Supercharger network are designed with this in mind. The Superchargers are spaced out approximately every 100-150 miles. Drive 3-4 hours, then recharge while you take a potty break, stretch your legs, and grab a sandwich. Boom, your car is charged and ready to go before you've even finished.

The Model S can charge at 40A using any NEMA 14-50 RV outlet, and many Model S owners utilize RV outlets in areas where there are no other options.

Someone upthread mentioned that manufacturers need to solve battery heat issues, but there are no such issues. Tesla's batteries are thermally managed and liquid-cooled, so they are always maintained at an optimal temperature. After over 2 years and over 32,000 miles, my car's battery has degraded by a mere 1.5%. That's two years in Arizona heat where summers peak at close to 120F. The brilliance of Tesla's design is a unique, proprietary Li-Ion chemistry combined with active thermal management.

EVs are not for everyone. Even though the new Model X can tow 5,000 lbs and can probably swing an Airstream, the aerodynamics and additional load will likely result in a reduction to the 257 mile quoted EPA range. The Model X was unveiled last night and is not expected to start volume production until the end of this year or early next year, so there are still many unknowns with regard to its towing capacity and what impact that will have on its range numbers.

EVs are definitely the future. What few obstacles remain in the path of general adoption - price, range, and charging ubiquity - are being tackled. Tesla's Model 3, which is expected to be produced in sedan and SUV variants, will start at $35,000 and will be unveiled in March of 2016, to be manufactured the following year. All Tesla EVs qualify for a $7,500 federal tax credit in addition to state tax credits ($2,500 in CA, for example). This is cash back in your pocket because a tax credit is a dollar-for-dollar reduction in your tax obligation - unlike a tax deduction.

I can say that a Model S makes a fantastic daily driver and completely replaces the need for a gasoline car. Prices are going to fall dramatically with Model 3, and range is expected to improve on the order of about 5% annually. There is no need for a 500 mile battery when most people drive less than 1/4 of that on a daily basis. You don't need to carry around a 1,500 lb battery pack when you only use a fraction of that capacity on a regular basis. The solution to long distance travel/road trips is the Supercharger network. More and more charge points are being added every day. Every one of the 300 Supercharger locations has an average of 8 stalls. They are located along major freeways and routes, and are co-located near food, shopping, and other places of interest.

Driving an EV is a truly fun experience. The motor is silent, all you hear is the air rushing around your vehicle. The instant torque and unreal acceleration is a major safety advantage, and the Model S is the safest car on the planet. In fact, it broke one of the NHTSA testing machines when it refused to roll over. Model X is rated as the safest SUV ever produced. Side impact intrusion into the cabin is HALF that of the next safest SUV - the Audi Q5.

The bottom line is that our current way of burning fossil fuels unabated is not sustainable. Tesla is acting as a forcing function to push the industry towards a sustainable transportation model. EVs are sustainable. The aluminum from which Model S is made is highly recyclable. Tesla Model S outsells the flagship models from Mercedes, Audi, BMW, on an annual basis. Most Model S owners didn't buy the car because of its environmental cred, they bought it because it was the most fun to drive. Ultimately, Tesla will succeed because it is making a car that is desirable on so many other levels - power, acceleration, space/storage, low maintenance, and brand prestige.

Did I mention that I never have to change oil, lubricate anything, or deal with any engine issues? The electric motor is about the size of a watermelon and sits on the rear axle beneath the rear seats on the RWD models. The AWD models have an additional motor up front. These are electric motors with reliability ratings that exceed 500,000 miles.

Regarding EVs being for "elites", which is something I hear every once in a while... what a bunch of nonsense. Tesla's business model is to make high priced cars with high profit margin to help finance the "mass market" Model 3 that will sell for under $40,000. That is Tesla's entire reason for being, and why they are building a $5 billion battery gigafactory in Nevada. They want to bring costs down to where orders of magnitude more people can afford them. Thanks to the deep pockets of early adopters, Tesla is able to scale and bring down costs over time to where their cars will be afforded by many. It's not about being elite, it's about Tesla knowing who to target in order to finance its long term survival and to be able to get to the Model 3 mass-market car. That's been their goal since the Roadster.

I encourage everyone, even the skeptics, to take a fun test drive in a Model S. You don't have to buy one, you don't even need to be in the financial position to buy one in order to experience this technology. Within a couple of years, this experience will be available to those who make much more average incomes. This technology offers tremendous benefits and it deserves our support.
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Old 09-30-2015, 01:11 PM   #31
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Tax payer subsidized Tesla and they loose money on every car they sell. They can't make it on their own. Only the wealthy can afford to purchase just to add another car to their collection of Ferraris and Lamborghinis and only if they are lucky enough to get their name on a list.

The bigger news would be if Tesla came up with a commuter car that could compete in price with average cars and wasn't tax payer funded.

Kelvin
If we are going to put R&D subsidies on one side of the ledger, for new technologies, we should consider current government subsidies on the other side of the ledger, for current technologies.

The IMF this year estimated global fossil fuel subsidies at $5.3 trillion, not counting exploration and production tax incentives. The US portion of that was $699 billion.
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Old 09-30-2015, 01:25 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AmpedRealtor View Post
There seems to be a lot of misinformation being disseminated in this thread. As a Tesla Model S owner, I'd like to set a few things straight.



First, let's put to bed the misinformation that an EV is just as polluting as an ICE (internal combustion engine) vehicle. It's not. In the state of Kentucky, which gets 93% of its power from burning coal, the Model S generates close to HALF the emissions of a comparable ICE vehicle.







It's a pure myth that EVs are remotely close to being as polluting as ICE vehicles when the vast majority of power is generated from fossil fuels. Another aspect that most people don't consider is this: As the grid gets cleaner and more electricity is generated using sustainable methods, all EVs relying on that power instantly become cleaner. ICE vehicles continue to pollute at the same, increased levels for the entire life of the vehicle. That's a MAJOR advantage to EVs.



Another aspect of owning an EV that is not appreciated by non-EV owners is that the car is always "full" every morning. There is no need to take any time out of your day to charge over 95% of the time you use this car because it charges when you aren't using it and delivers full range when you do. Imagine if your gasoline cars refilled themselves overnight while you were sleeping - wouldn't that be a game changer?



Regarding range, my car has a 250 mile range. Over 80% of Americans drive fewer than 60 miles per day. My longest days can often be 100-120 miles of appointments from one end of the valley to the other. I have no range issues. I drove to San Diego recently from Phoenix, no issues whatsoever - I spent 30 minutes charging along the way and plugged-in when I reached my destination. I also completed a 1,400 mile road trip almost a year ago, and I used Tesla's Superchargers the whole way.



Tesla now has over 300 Superchargers in the US alone. Tesla's Superchargers charge at an incredible rate of 120,000 watts (120 kW). This gives the Model S a 150 mile charge in only 20 minutes. Most people, when driving long distances, will take a break after driving 3-4 hours. The car's range and Supercharger network are designed with this in mind. The Superchargers are spaced out approximately every 100-150 miles. Drive 3-4 hours, then recharge while you take a potty break, stretch your legs, and grab a sandwich. Boom, your car is charged and ready to go before you've even finished.



The Model S can charge at 40A using any NEMA 14-50 RV outlet, and many Model S owners utilize RV outlets in areas where there are no other options.



Someone upthread mentioned that manufacturers need to solve battery heat issues, but there are no such issues. Tesla's batteries are thermally managed and liquid-cooled, so they are always maintained at an optimal temperature. After over 2 years and over 32,000 miles, my car's battery has degraded by a mere 1.5%. That's two years in Arizona heat where summers peak at close to 120F. The brilliance of Tesla's design is a unique, proprietary Li-Ion chemistry combined with active thermal management.



EVs are not for everyone. Even though the new Model X can tow 5,000 lbs and can probably swing an Airstream, the aerodynamics and additional load will likely result in a reduction to the 257 mile quoted EPA range. The Model X was unveiled last night and is not expected to start volume production until the end of this year or early next year, so there are still many unknowns with regard to its towing capacity and what impact that will have on its range numbers.



EVs are definitely the future. What few obstacles remain in the path of general adoption - price, range, and charging ubiquity - are being tackled. Tesla's Model 3, which is expected to be produced in sedan and SUV variants, will start at $35,000 and will be unveiled in March of 2016, to be manufactured the following year. All Tesla EVs qualify for a $7,500 federal tax credit in addition to state tax credits ($2,500 in CA, for example). This is cash back in your pocket because a tax credit is a dollar-for-dollar reduction in your tax obligation - unlike a tax deduction.



I can say that a Model S makes a fantastic daily driver and completely replaces the need for a gasoline car. Prices are going to fall dramatically with Model 3, and range is expected to improve on the order of about 5% annually. There is no need for a 500 mile battery when most people drive less than 1/4 of that on a daily basis. You don't need to carry around a 1,500 lb battery pack when you only use a fraction of that capacity on a regular basis. The solution to long distance travel/road trips is the Supercharger network. More and more charge points are being added every day. Every one of the 300 Supercharger locations has an average of 8 stalls. They are located along major freeways and routes, and are co-located near food, shopping, and other places of interest.



Driving an EV is a truly fun experience. The motor is silent, all you hear is the air rushing around your vehicle. The instant torque and unreal acceleration is a major safety advantage, and the Model S is the safest car on the planet. In fact, it broke one of the NHTSA testing machines when it refused to roll over. Model X is rated as the safest SUV ever produced. Side impact intrusion into the cabin is HALF that of the next safest SUV - the Audi Q5.



The bottom line is that our current way of burning fossil fuels unabated is not sustainable. Tesla is acting as a forcing function to push the industry towards a sustainable transportation model. EVs are sustainable. The aluminum from which Model S is made is highly recyclable. Tesla Model S outsells the flagship models from Mercedes, Audi, BMW, on an annual basis. Most Model S owners didn't buy the car because of its environmental cred, they bought it because it was the most fun to drive. Ultimately, Tesla will succeed because it is making a car that is desirable on so many other levels - power, acceleration, space/storage, low maintenance, and brand prestige.



Did I mention that I never have to change oil, lubricate anything, or deal with any engine issues? The electric motor is about the size of a watermelon and sits on the rear axle beneath the rear seats on the RWD models. The AWD models have an additional motor up front. These are electric motors with reliability ratings that exceed 500,000 miles.



Regarding EVs being for "elites", which is something I hear every once in a while... what a bunch of nonsense. Tesla's business model is to make high priced cars with high profit margin to help finance the "mass market" Model 3 that will sell for under $40,000. That is Tesla's entire reason for being, and why they are building a $5 billion battery gigafactory in Nevada. They want to bring costs down to where orders of magnitude more people can afford them. Thanks to the deep pockets of early adopters, Tesla is able to scale and bring down costs over time to where their cars will be afforded by many. It's not about being elite, it's about Tesla knowing who to target in order to finance its long term survival and to be able to get to the Model 3 mass-market car. That's been their goal since the Roadster.



I encourage everyone, even the skeptics, to take a fun test drive in a Model S. You don't have to buy one, you don't even need to be in the financial position to buy one in order to experience this technology. Within a couple of years, this experience will be available to those who make much more average incomes. This technology offers tremendous benefits and it deserves our support.

I can't afford an "under $40,000" car-
The Tesla is a great idea and a great car for those who can afford them.


Sent from my iPhone using Airstream Forums
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Old 09-30-2015, 01:32 PM   #33
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The bottom line is that our current way of burning fossil fuels unabated is not sustainable. Tesla is acting as a forcing function to push the industry towards a sustainable transportation model. EVs are sustainable.
This.
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Old 09-30-2015, 01:54 PM   #34
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Tesla Motors New Model X.

Okay ...
but has there ever been a study comparing the various "traditional" ways to make electricity vs the energy and possible polution of making PV panels over the lifespan of the panel?
If indeed PV won with ALL things considered, THAT would be something.
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Old 09-30-2015, 04:21 PM   #35
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Lofty standards? Actually I have fairly low standards as far as expecting personal opinions to be excepted here without being insulted or having them dismised out of hand.
AWCHIEF,
Sorry for that. I should have kept it less personal. Mea Culpa.
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Old 09-30-2015, 06:02 PM   #36
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In defense of Engineering

Anyone who has spent much time at Jackson Center has probably made a side trip to the Bicycle Museum. If you look at the evolution of bicycle design - and the "whimsy/stupidity" of high wheelers, you have to realize that new product designs are now much less random than they used to be. "New and Improved" happens in years instead of decades.

Check your bag phone at the door.

We're getting there.

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Old 09-30-2015, 07:15 PM   #37
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They probably ARE super-fast chargers. But that doesn't mean the drivers are considerate enough to leave the store to go back outside and unplug and move the car when the charging is complete. Just as easy for them to leave the car plugged in until they're done shopping regardless of how little time it takes to charge the cars.

Actually the drivers were sitting in the cars waiting the whole time.
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Old 09-30-2015, 09:31 PM   #38
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Where's my shipstone when I need it!? That would solve everything.
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Old 09-30-2015, 10:48 PM   #39
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We love Tesla.

Hi, my wife and I love Tesla's, and would love to own one. They are well built and we don't have to deal with %#@*&% at the gas station. Of course we still have to have a tow vehicle for our Airstream, but this would be for convenience driving. What we don't like is the very low slung cars like the S model because we gave up on owning Thunderbirds because they are too hard for old people like us to get in and out of. We have been waiting for this SUV model to come out. Will it someday replace my wife's BMW X-3???? Maybe! Would we buy it to save on gas money? No! Would you have more gas money if you bought an SOB instead of an Airstream?

Did you know that the Chevy Volt lost more than $50,000.00 per unit sold at first and is most likely still losing money. Think of it as buying a $96,000.00 car for $46,000.00; What a bargain.
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Old 09-30-2015, 10:56 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AmpedRealtor View Post
There seems to be a lot of misinformation being disseminated in this thread. As a Tesla Model S owner, I'd like to set a few things straight.

First, let's put to bed the misinformation that an EV is just as polluting as an ICE (internal combustion engine) vehicle. It's not. In the state of Kentucky, which gets 93% of its power from burning coal, the Model S generates close to HALF the emissions of a comparable ICE vehicle.



It's a pure myth that EVs are remotely close to being as polluting as ICE vehicles when the vast majority of power is generated from fossil fuels. Another aspect that most people don't consider is this: As the grid gets cleaner and more electricity is generated using sustainable methods, all EVs relying on that power instantly become cleaner. ICE vehicles continue to pollute at the same, increased levels for the entire life of the vehicle. That's a MAJOR advantage to EVs.

Another aspect of owning an EV that is not appreciated by non-EV owners is that the car is always "full" every morning. There is no need to take any time out of your day to charge over 95% of the time you use this car because it charges when you aren't using it and delivers full range when you do. Imagine if your gasoline cars refilled themselves overnight while you were sleeping - wouldn't that be a game changer?

Regarding range, my car has a 250 mile range. Over 80% of Americans drive fewer than 60 miles per day. My longest days can often be 100-120 miles of appointments from one end of the valley to the other. I have no range issues. I drove to San Diego recently from Phoenix, no issues whatsoever - I spent 30 minutes charging along the way and plugged-in when I reached my destination. I also completed a 1,400 mile road trip almost a year ago, and I used Tesla's Superchargers the whole way.

Tesla now has over 300 Superchargers in the US alone. Tesla's Superchargers charge at an incredible rate of 120,000 watts (120 kW). This gives the Model S a 150 mile charge in only 20 minutes. Most people, when driving long distances, will take a break after driving 3-4 hours. The car's range and Supercharger network are designed with this in mind. The Superchargers are spaced out approximately every 100-150 miles. Drive 3-4 hours, then recharge while you take a potty break, stretch your legs, and grab a sandwich. Boom, your car is charged and ready to go before you've even finished.

The Model S can charge at 40A using any NEMA 14-50 RV outlet, and many Model S owners utilize RV outlets in areas where there are no other options.

Someone upthread mentioned that manufacturers need to solve battery heat issues, but there are no such issues. Tesla's batteries are thermally managed and liquid-cooled, so they are always maintained at an optimal temperature. After over 2 years and over 32,000 miles, my car's battery has degraded by a mere 1.5%. That's two years in Arizona heat where summers peak at close to 120F. The brilliance of Tesla's design is a unique, proprietary Li-Ion chemistry combined with active thermal management.

EVs are not for everyone. Even though the new Model X can tow 5,000 lbs and can probably swing an Airstream, the aerodynamics and additional load will likely result in a reduction to the 257 mile quoted EPA range. The Model X was unveiled last night and is not expected to start volume production until the end of this year or early next year, so there are still many unknowns with regard to its towing capacity and what impact that will have on its range numbers.

EVs are definitely the future. What few obstacles remain in the path of general adoption - price, range, and charging ubiquity - are being tackled. Tesla's Model 3, which is expected to be produced in sedan and SUV variants, will start at $35,000 and will be unveiled in March of 2016, to be manufactured the following year. All Tesla EVs qualify for a $7,500 federal tax credit in addition to state tax credits ($2,500 in CA, for example). This is cash back in your pocket because a tax credit is a dollar-for-dollar reduction in your tax obligation - unlike a tax deduction.

I can say that a Model S makes a fantastic daily driver and completely replaces the need for a gasoline car. Prices are going to fall dramatically with Model 3, and range is expected to improve on the order of about 5% annually. There is no need for a 500 mile battery when most people drive less than 1/4 of that on a daily basis. You don't need to carry around a 1,500 lb battery pack when you only use a fraction of that capacity on a regular basis. The solution to long distance travel/road trips is the Supercharger network. More and more charge points are being added every day. Every one of the 300 Supercharger locations has an average of 8 stalls. They are located along major freeways and routes, and are co-located near food, shopping, and other places of interest.

Driving an EV is a truly fun experience. The motor is silent, all you hear is the air rushing around your vehicle. The instant torque and unreal acceleration is a major safety advantage, and the Model S is the safest car on the planet. In fact, it broke one of the NHTSA testing machines when it refused to roll over. Model X is rated as the safest SUV ever produced. Side impact intrusion into the cabin is HALF that of the next safest SUV - the Audi Q5.

The bottom line is that our current way of burning fossil fuels unabated is not sustainable. Tesla is acting as a forcing function to push the industry towards a sustainable transportation model. EVs are sustainable. The aluminum from which Model S is made is highly recyclable. Tesla Model S outsells the flagship models from Mercedes, Audi, BMW, on an annual basis. Most Model S owners didn't buy the car because of its environmental cred, they bought it because it was the most fun to drive. Ultimately, Tesla will succeed because it is making a car that is desirable on so many other levels - power, acceleration, space/storage, low maintenance, and brand prestige.

Did I mention that I never have to change oil, lubricate anything, or deal with any engine issues? The electric motor is about the size of a watermelon and sits on the rear axle beneath the rear seats on the RWD models. The AWD models have an additional motor up front. These are electric motors with reliability ratings that exceed 500,000 miles.

Regarding EVs being for "elites", which is something I hear every once in a while... what a bunch of nonsense. Tesla's business model is to make high priced cars with high profit margin to help finance the "mass market" Model 3 that will sell for under $40,000. That is Tesla's entire reason for being, and why they are building a $5 billion battery gigafactory in Nevada. They want to bring costs down to where orders of magnitude more people can afford them. Thanks to the deep pockets of early adopters, Tesla is able to scale and bring down costs over time to where their cars will be afforded by many. It's not about being elite, it's about Tesla knowing who to target in order to finance its long term survival and to be able to get to the Model 3 mass-market car. That's been their goal since the Roadster.

I encourage everyone, even the skeptics, to take a fun test drive in a Model S. You don't have to buy one, you don't even need to be in the financial position to buy one in order to experience this technology. Within a couple of years, this experience will be available to those who make much more average incomes. This technology offers tremendous benefits and it deserves our support.
Awesome write up amped realtor. I live in CA, and drive a plug-in hybrid (Ford C-Max Energi) which I prefer to drive in all electric mode dropping off my son and then on to work where I plug in for two hours to make the return trip. It's 1/3 the cost of running in hybrid mode. Great technology and performance plus smug factor, but in CA the big bonus is the "sticker" that lets you drive in the HOV lanes. That was the kicker for me a year ago.

A couple of good points, but what seems to limit EVs is infrastructure since it takes enormous current to charge an EV quickly. It takes 6.5 kWhrs to drive the 25 miles to work. But lots of people never camp outside campgrounds without full hookups so one an see a use case that can work with EV+Airstream.

Your mileage may vary of course but the EV is meeting many people's needs, and it could also for Airstreams. Gotta keep an open mind. Now if you want to create a S-storm, start talking about Thorium fuled nuclear plants, a potential holy grail for our future...
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Old 10-01-2015, 09:53 AM   #41
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Many states won't allow Tesla to sell their products. Tesla's business model disturbs the status quo. So much for free enterprise.

Missouri auto-dealers lobby sneaks anti-Tesla provision in bill at last minute : TreeHugger

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Old 10-01-2015, 10:49 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by ROBERTSUNRUS View Post
Hi, my wife and I love Tesla's, and would love to own one. They are well built and we don't have to deal with %#@*&% at the gas station. Of course we still have to have a tow vehicle for our Airstream, but this would be for convenience driving. What we don't like is the very low slung cars like the S model because we gave up on owning Thunderbirds because they are too hard for old people like us to get in and out of. We have been waiting for this SUV model to come out. Will it someday replace my wife's BMW X-3???? Maybe! Would we buy it to save on gas money? No! Would you have more gas money if you bought an SOB instead of an Airstream?

Did you know that the Chevy Volt lost more than $50,000.00 per unit sold at first and is most likely still losing money. Think of it as buying a $96,000.00 car for $46,000.00; What a bargain.
The Volt is actually an excellent car. Studies show that over 80% of Americans drive less than 50 miles per day. The 2016 Volt will travel about 50 miles on electricity alone and the rest on gasoline. If you drive less than this per day or have the ability to plug-in and charge at work, you will rarely dip into the gas tank and will essentially be driving on electricity.

The Volt is eligible for the $7,500 federal tax credit as well.
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