Something is going on: Airstream rollover three

[Scorge-ION]

Few points for newbies that I didn't see covered.
1. Go slower downhill than uphill. You can stop a lot quicker going uphill than downhill. (Not common-enough sense.) Shift the transmission into the gear it would require to climb the same grade or a lower gear. If you don't know how to downshift, learn.
2. Don't allow your speed to climb too high as you crest the top of the hill or pass. If you do, you'll have to shed speed on the downhill side which is much more difficult.
3. When your trailer starts oscillating, you can often stabilize it by briefly accelerating. See point 1, you'd better be going slow enough to be able to accelerate a little without getting into trouble.
4. Practice emergency maneuvers off the highway. Find a big, empty parking lot and work up speed in turning while braking. Get a good feel for how your vehicle responds. (Most of you are urbanites or suburbanites and don't have access to the Black Rock Desert so this might be challenging.)
5. After you've adjusted the brakes properly, test them. Get them all braking the same. Adjust your brake controller until your rig can stop straight and safely in a panic stop.
6. Don't use your brakes too much. Remember the tow vehicle has disk brakes but your trailer has drum brakes that will fade much more quickly than the disks.
7. Ride hard, shoot straight, and make your Momma proud!

[franklyfrank]

Originally Posted by Isuzusweet

No such word as "irregardless"; regardless, yes; irregardless, no.
Your last comment would be like explaining that ALL aircraft accidents were pilot error.

Not to start a yet another drift, most aircraft accidents, especially in general aviation are in fact pilot error. I believe over 90 percent or more.
That statistic was drummed into my head by my instructor many years ago every time preflight checking years ago.
How many of us actually take the time to test the trailer breaks before takeoff ?

[tjdonahoe]

I have been up and over Bozeman pass for many years in a freight trucks doubles and triples, lots of trips with the airstreams and avions I have owned,never had any problems except for having to throw on chains on the trucks in the winter....it is easy runnin

[JRF0st3r]

Thanks to Hank (hshovic) for bring up the topic and to all the thoughts on how to avoid such fate. It is an opportunity to think about what I do right and where to improve. Doyle's wise assessment (Protagonist) sure makes me appreciate that my TV was recently upgraded. Previous TV could have easily been overloaded.
Jim

[BDowse]

We saw a rollover(box trailer) in the Northwest a couple of weeks ago. They were picking up sticks, splinters, plastic pieces and gear, loading on a flatbed trailer for the first trip to the landfill. Makes you appreciate the structural integrity of AS. Suspect they righted this one and towed it to town for evaluation.

[rem3006]

Slow down before you hit the grade, downshift. Use the trailer brakes to slow you down. People with the brake actuator connected to the tv brakes have to get used to just using the hand actuator for the trailer. Brakes.
I don't have mine connected to my tv. I hand actuate the trailer brakes. If your setting up the tv brakes your going to light up the tv brakes & good by.

Keep your speed way down before you go into the grade. Use both brakes but manly the trailer brakes going down.

In the examplses given I would say the tv is undersize, & no one told them to use the trailer brakes etc.,

[Oxen]

Originally Posted by hshovic

You will recall the old saying "Once is chance, twice is coincidence, but three is enemy action". Well, here goes the action:

Many of you will recall my previous post about two Airstream rollovers in a week on I90 MP319, in roughly the same spot, in early August two years ago. I am a fireman and responded to both. In both cases, weather was perfect, grade was straight and 4% downhill. Both times trailer swung around the TV. One was a small SUV with a long trailer, one a rental unit. Here is the thread.

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f463...ml#post1645004

Today, I received a page MVA I90 MP319. I was off duty, but heard later from the responders that it WAS AN AIRSTREAM IN THE SAME PLACE, where the trailer apparently tried swing the TV, based on skid marks. The TV and trailer were in the ditch on their sides. And it was apparently a rental unit. Young family of four, one transported.

So what do we make of that? I don't believe any of the TV's were larger than 1/2 ton trucks. Were the TV's overloaded? Were the driver's inexperienced? Were the hitches on right? I don't know, but something is going on, and I don't want to be a part of it.

I do know most TV's (in particular 1/2 tons) are overloaded. Here is the thread.

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f463...tml#post456088.

Points well taken, but did they have the trailer brakes set up? There is too much coincidence here.

[Rpatrick16]

I traveled this very stretch of road yesterday and came upon the wreck a short time after it had happened. I was towing my AS 22FB Sport at the time and didn't see or feel anything usual regarding weather, wind, etc on this stretch of road. My first thoughts as I approached the wreck was the fact that it was a really long AS pulled by a short wheeled based Chev Tahoe. Or a variation thereof.... i.e. too much trailer for too little tow vehicle.
The trailer appeared to be 30' feet or better long. At the back was either a bike rack without the bikes or possible a rear entry door. I didn't get a good look. I can attest to the fact, living here in Montana, and driving this stretch of road a number of times....and as stated by the original poster...that this is not an unusual stretch of Montana interstate highway. It was obvious to me that the driver panicked as he descended the hill and when the trailer started to sway...simply lost it. The highway was very busy at the time with a lot of vacation travel....moving fast.

[Rocinante]

BTW, I've read that you can do a very basic check of your trailer brakes on a gravel surface. Position someone outside to watch. Tow slowly forward, and then apply the trailer brakes via the hand-brake. If all four trailer wheels slide in the gravel as you continue forward a couple of feet, you'll know that you at least have some stopping power at each wheel. It's not a legit brake adjustment test, but at a gross-motor level you will know that you have trailer brakes.

[RandyNH]

Originally Posted by rem3006

Slow down before you hit the grade, downshift. Use the trailer brakes to slow you down. People with the brake actuator connected to the tv brakes have to get used to just using the hand actuator for the trailer. Brakes.
I don't have mine connected to my tv. I hand actuate the trailer brakes. If your setting up the tv brakes your going to light up the tv brakes & good by.

Keep your speed way down before you go into the grade. Use both brakes but manly the trailer brakes going down.

In the examplses given I would say the tv is undersize, & no one told them to use the trailer brakes etc.,

I agree, but even with practice, just to cover my butt, once I crest and start down I will turn my controller all the way up, normal is at 6.5, I figure this way in a panic situation or just forgetting, the trailer will always have as much brake possible to counter against the truck braking.

[pteck]

Originally Posted by rem3006

I don't have mine connected to my tv. I hand actuate the trailer brakes. If your setting up the tv brakes your going to light up the tv brakes & good by.

Really? I've never heard of having an independently setup trailer brake that is not tied to the tow vehicles brakes.

You might be skillful at this, but I don't believe this is a safe strategy at all. In an emergency situation, you will not be able to react quickly and deftly enough to actuate both tow vehicles and trailer brakes simultaneously, let alone in a balanced manner, while trying to keep your body in place.

I'm all for using the manual OVERRIDE to keep the setup in tension, but not tying the two together is another recipe for disaster.

[guskmg]

I did not see any comment about insuring the brake controller gain is high enough to always apply trailer brakes before tow vehicle brakes. Not all brake controllers can do that. That will straighten out sway in the early stages. I case of divergent sway, after a certain amplitude, nothing will help. The tail is wagging the dog. Also, always approach a downhill grade with lower speeds and never rely on acceleration or braking after the fact to save your bacon. Always make sure your rig is in good mechanical condition. Adequate TV wheel base is necessary as well as about 12-15% hitch weight. Trapezoid hitches are far the safest. And, disc brakes on the trailer are even better. TV grade braking saves brake wear, but be sure the trailer is braking first as mentioned above. Be sure you are in control at all times.
guskmg

[Mellinkat]

Originally Posted by Protagonist

As an experienced accident investigator, I investigated accidents based on the empirical assumption that there is never just one cause of any accident. There are always two or more. One is an unsafe act, the other an unsafe condition or another unsafe act.

An unsafe condition by itself never causes an accident. If the people involved are aware of the condition, they can make allowances for it, and everything is copacetic.

One unsafe act by itself never causes an accident. That's why people can say, "But I've done it that way for years and never had a problem." Until the one time they DO have a problem, because conditions were different that time.

In these three cases, there is at least one known unsafe condition, namely the 4% downhill grade. One thing that's unsafe about a downhill grade is the gravity-assisted acceleration. Most of us know to downshift and use engine compression to help control speed, and we know not to ride the brakes if we do have to brake, because hot brakes fade. But some people don't even realize that you can downshift an automatic; they just put it in "D" and go on about their way. And if they don't know to downshift, they may ride the brakes for lack of knowing what else to do. And given the way trailer brakes are typically set up, the trailer brakes will fade before the tow vehicle brakes do, leading to the tail trying to wag the dog when the tow vehicle slows and the trailer doesn't. Especially when the trailer outweighs the tow vehicle by a significant margin.

So there's a possible unsafe condition, the downhill grade, and a possible unsafe act, improper method of downhill speed control. One plus one equals two, an accident.

It's all speculation, of course. I wasn't there. I didn't see it. I didn't talk to any of the people involved. But it's entirely plausible, and it makes sense of the same type of accident happening in the same place three different times.

Thank you Protagonist for your post. I have never thought of risk in these terms, but it makes a lot of sense and it helps me remember that when facing any unsafe condition, extra caution/adaptation is always called for.

[nickclifford]

It's takes quite a savvy, skilled and confident driver to tow a trailer. I consider myself to be a very confident driver and highly skilled in vehicle dynamics as I used to race Karts. My mind is just wired that way, I could never be an accountant ! having said that I was quite nervous and very cautious on my first outing, I've towed a small popup for years but never a large trailer. Maybe this driver was clueless, maybe a freak accident. ?!

[OTRA15]

Originally Posted by franklyfrank

. . .
How many of us actually take the time to test the trailer breaks before takeoff ?

We do it religiously, putting the gain up to 10 [Max], and using the trailer brakes alone if possible for the first 1/4 mile or so, to wear off any overnight rust on the drums, and re-calibrate things. If possible, also try to find a sandy patch, and make sure that all the wheels lock up. [Edit -- See Rocinante's Post #49 on this.]

Then we reset the gain. Anyone who does not do the full "pre-flight" check list every time is simply signing off on accepting risks unnecessarily IMO.

How long does it take to reach down and apply the trailer brakes?



We also increase the gain on steep downhills, so that the trailer brakes do more of the work, as suggested by a few earlier comments.

Stay Safe!

Peter

[OTRA15]

Thank you for your eye witness report. Was the accident in fact at Bozeman Pass, or east of Livingston, as the original article might have been suggesting? [as quoted in Post #11] Too bad we don't have more information about the tow vehicle and possible rear rack/door you saw.

Thanks again,

Peter

Originally Posted by Rpatrick16

I traveled this very stretch of road yesterday and came upon the wreck a short time after it had happened. I was towing my AS 22FB Sport at the time and didn't see or feel anything usual regarding weather, wind, etc on this stretch of road. My first thoughts as I approached the wreck was the fact that it was a really long AS pulled by a short wheeled based Chev Tahoe. Or a variation thereof.... i.e. too much trailer for too little tow vehicle.
The trailer appeared to be 30' feet or better long. At the back was either a bike rack without the bikes or possible a rear entry door. I didn't get a good look. I can attest to the fact, living here in Montana, and driving this stretch of road a number of times....and as stated by the original poster...that this is not an unusual stretch of Montana interstate highway. It was obvious to me that the driver panicked as he descended the hill and when the trailer started to sway...simply lost it. The highway was very busy at the time with a lot of vacation travel....moving fast.

[Ted S.]

Originally Posted by hshovic

Another possibility: Is it possible that Airstreams tow so well that drivers are lulled into a false sense of security, so when the unusual conditions come together, they are not prepared for instability?

Yes, but I think many people towing feel they are safer then they really are. How many times have you been passed by someone towing a trailer with a lesser set up than you only to watch them sway when changing lanes and then find them on the side of the road with a flat later in the day?

So I think if an AS is going to roll, a SOB will go first. The fact that no SOBs have rolled I would think is a freak thing.

[Countryboy59]

Originally Posted by quietguy

Ahhh. If only that were true...I'd let go of the controls all the time!!

But, I only have 14,000+ hrs flying all types of aircraft including 15+ years of airline flying.

Protagonist's observation that there are ALWAYS multiple events that lead up to and "cause" the accident is far more accurate.

You fly professionally and are proficient in very unforgiving aircraft. Most people tow on weekends or vacation, with very little practice; hence my comparison to simpler aircraft that are much more forgiving. Only works if there's enough altitude though 😎 Weekend pilots still get in trouble.

It doesn't take much to get a trailer to sway or lose control, and unless you tow a lot and are very focused you may not recognize events leading up to it.

[sgschwend]

I agree with Tj.... it is an easy well built road. I personally don't like traveling west into Mullan Idaho as a comparison.

[thiel]

Did I read somewhere that something like 70% of airstream sales are to people who have never towed an RV before?

With the dramatic rise in popularity of RVing, I think we'll see more of this unfortunately. I wonder whether the inexperience of AS owners is common to the industry or endemic to the brand.