Safety: Learning from Incidents, Accidents & Crashes

[John&Vicki]

As this thread is about learning from incidents, accidents and crashes, I should of posted a link to the crash that prompted me to post the tongue weight procedure to keep things in context. The discussion was started on the Casita Club Forum by someone who witnessed an Airstream accident caused by sway in January of this year:

Saw A Trailer Sway Then Roll Over Today. (Not A Casita!) - The Casita Club Forum - The Casita Club Forums

The Casita Club Forum contains a lot of good information, just like this one.

Poppy

[John&Vicki]

The accident I just posted a link to involved a 19' Bambi towed by a Ford truck and was discussed in an issue of "Airstream Life" in an article written by Andy Thompson. Here's a quote from the article:

This was likely an accident where a lot of seemingly small items combined to create a loss of control. The owner had received some bad advice to remove his 20" rims and install 17" rims with a much less controlled tire. The hitch setup was not good so there was little if any weight transfer. This further exacerbated the poor tire control by unloading the front wheels. The accident was probably precipitated by an event like wind shear from a truck or a strong cross wind. Once a strong sway started, the driver applying the brakes on the truck would then complete the formula needed to have a loss of control accident (emphasis added).

Just about a perfect formula for a sway induced accident.

Poppy

[mojo]

Originally Posted by Birdmaestro

There is a lot of discussion here about getting weight right: observing limits, balancing correctly, etc. I came across what looks like a good way to measure hitch weight on another forum. It enables you to use a common bathroom scale.

The bathroom scale method gives you an estimate of hitch weight but is not the most stable set up and weights can be off by 200 lbs by weighing at the jack stand as opposed to the coupler at the ball. A sherline hitch scale can provide better accuracy. Plus a 200lb difference may negate some of the confusion about true hitch weight and all the referrals to published GCVW and hitch weights discussed on the forums.

[John&Vicki]

Mojo...

Inaccurate by 200 pounds would make weighing by bathroom scale worthless. How could AS recommend it? Where did you get your information?

Thanks,
Poppy

[AWCHIEF]

Originally Posted by mojo

The bathroom scale method gives you an estimate of hitch weight but is not the most stable set up and weights can be off by 200 lbs by weighing at the jack stand as opposed to the coupler at the ball. A sherline hitch scale can provide better accuracy. Plus a 200lb difference may negate some of the confusion about true hitch weight and all the referrals to published GCVW and hitch weights discussed on the forums.

Can I borrow your scale?

[BoldAdventure]

Originally Posted by Birdmaestro

Mojo...

Inaccurate by 200 pounds would make weighing by bathroom scale worthless. How could AS recommend it? Where did you get your information?

Thanks,
Poppy

Oddly enough, some quick math shows if you had 200lbs to Airstreams published numbers for their hitch weights, you end up with numbers closer to what people have shared as their empty trailer hitch weight.

Maybe that's why the promote it. So they can claim their hitches are lite?

[Jammer]

Well let's summarize.

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f48/...ay-124057.html - car following the Airstream collided with it, causing loss of control.

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f161...ml#post1313059 - Loss of control with no known cause, possibly due to tire failure. Reese dual cam

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f351...nce-28912.html - Loss of control on downhill grade, possibly due to partial or complete failure of the trailer brakes.

https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=...o/oxLV0n3tvggJ - sudden lane change to avoid another vehicle leads to loss of control. Reese dual cam

Nelson: Airstream vs. School Bus – No Injuries | Blue Ridge Life Magazine : - not enough data to draw any conclusions

Saw A Trailer Sway Then Roll Over Today. (Not A Casita&#33 - The Casita Club Forum - The Casita Club Forums - loss of control accident, not enough data to conclude anything more

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-K3WIFeLo5x...0/IMG_2391.JPG - loss of control under winter conditions, road surface may have had slippery spots. Conventional WD hitch, unclear whether sway control was used

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f464...tch-82925.html - loss of control accident, cause unclear - Hensley hitch

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f42/...ime-46232.html - collision from police SUV with lights on that was, apparently, not being driven in a safe manner.

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f42/...one-27195.html - loss of control due to icy road

I can't draw any conclusions from that. Maybe someone else can.

I will observe that, to the extent we can determine, WD hitches were present in all the crashes, and none appear to involve overmatched tow vehicles.

[mojo]

Originally Posted by Birdmaestro

Mojo...

Inaccurate by 200 pounds would make weighing by bathroom scale worthless. How could AS recommend it? Where did you get your information?

Thanks,
Poppy

By weighing at the hitch coupler and the jack stand with the Sherline scale. 200 lbs difference.

This is why crunching numbers relying on published weights and limits are worthless unless you go to a truck scale and weigh YOUR trailer and TV under all configurations. Only then will you know what's safe.

[John&Vicki]

Someone sent me the following PM:

The number one problem I see with the "discussion" of this whole subject is that it cannot in any meaningful way address the "most important" aspect of accident avoidance, and that is....driver skill.

I'm not sure it's the most important. According to Inland Andy improper setup is responsible for 2/3 to 3/4 of all accidents (no doubt often compounded by lack of driver skill). So that seems pretty important also. And there has been discussion here about driver skills - the proper way to respond to a sway and to practice the proper way to practice the proper response to a sway for example.

It can get depressing reading about all these mishaps. I hadn't realized there were so many. I might not become a better driver as a result of what I learn here, but it's motivated me to try.

Poppy

[AWCHIEF]

Not discounting research done in the past, but it would be nice to see some info based on current suspension and WD systems technology. The new automatic Air Suspensions and WD systems are a far cry from those used 20 or 30 years ago.

[BoldAdventure]

Originally Posted by Birdmaestro

According to Inland Andy improper setup is responsible for 2/3 to 3/4 of all accidents (no doubt often compounded by lack of driver skill). So that seems pretty important also. And there has been discussion here about driver skills - the proper way to respond to a sway and to practice the proper way to practice the proper response to a sway for example.

It can get depressing reading about all these mishaps. I hadn't realized there were so many. I might not become a better driver as a result of what I learn here, but it's motivated me to try.

Poppy

Wow, well that settles it with that bold claim. Who can argue with the solid facts and research.

[J. Morgan]

Pretty much, when we are talking about "single vehicle" towing accidents, apart from sudden equipment failure, all accidents are a result of driver error.

This is true whether the tow vehicle is over size or under size, whether a state of the art hitch is used or the trailer is towed on the ball.

Whatever the limitations of the vehicle, it is the job of the driver to know these limitations and to drive accordingly.

Even so, there will be accidents, and even good drivers are subject to error.

[John&Vicki]

Originally Posted by BoldAdventure

Wow, well that settles it with that bold claim. Who can argue with the solid facts and research.

Now I know that Millennials have a penchant for irony. As a old guy I'm not quite sure how to take your comment.

Poppy

[ROBERTSUNRUS]

Originally Posted by AWCHIEF

Not discounting research done in the past, but it would be nice to see some info based on current suspension and WD systems technology. The new automatic Air Suspensions and WD systems are a far cry from those used 20 or 30 years ago.

Hi, as much as a certain person claims that air bags are a big no no, my 2000 Lincoln Navigator came from the factory with rear air suspension. It also came with the factory tow package and the owner's manual tells you how to set up a WD hitch with this vehicle. I think I'll trust the Ford engineers. [well I have for about nine years now] Maybe that one year only 1958 Ford air suspension wasn't too hot.

[xrvr]

If you get a Hensley so you can tow faster, aren't you partially negating the advantages as far as safety is concerned? Ideally, I believe, would be a Hensley and a speed of less than 65 mph. Jim

[kevin242]

It has been said already in this thread that there are usually several contributing factors to most incidents. If you remove any one of the factors proactively, the probability of a mishap decreases.

With today's tow vehicles, it's easy to tow at 65+ mph (105+ kmh) but the forces at work when things go wrong have remained unchanged over the years. Physics is physics...

The simplest factor that is under the driver's control is speed. Check this out:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SuY_VHzKdjc

[J. Morgan]

Just for context,,,,, traveling at 45 mph the car will stop faster still....

And at 20mph even safer.

In a model T 20 MPH is fast enough, and 45 MPH is scary fast....

A reasonable speed is different whether in traffic or on a rural interstate. Assuming a stable rig, there are times when 50 is too fast, and imho there are times when 60 is too slow.

By the way,,, Regarding the video, I contend that I had been in the place of either car in a car with good non antilock brakes, my car would not have hit the trailer.....

[John&Vicki]

Originally Posted by J. Morgan

Just for context,,,,, traveling at 45 mph the car will stop faster still....

And at 20mph even safer.

In a model T 20 MPH is fast enough, and 45 MPH is scary fast....

A reasonable speed is different whether in traffic or on a rural interstate. Assuming a stable rig, there are times when 50 is too fast, and imho there are times when 60 is too slow.

That V squared thing is a bitch. Fortunately I think most here use common sense in determining how fast they drive.

For me one of the biggest challenges when it comes to speed is traffic flow. I agree that it's safest to stay in the flow (which for me when I'm towing is the lane flowing the slowest) as opposed to being an impediment. Slow drivers on the track are often referred to as a "moving chicane" and it can create a real hazard.

But it can be scary being in the flow...

A couple of years ago I was driving a very capable Porsche, one that I had driven on the track a couple of weeks before, on one of the freeways around San Francisco. The road had perhaps 5-6 lanes and I was in the second to the inside lane and going along with the flow. The road was in disrepair, as many of the highways are in California, and very bumpy, but that didn't seem to discourage anyone. I glanced at my speedometer and the flow was 85mph.

It seemed frantic to me and I was paying attention - I had felt safer on the track. We came to a large sweeper and no one slowed down. The inside lane was going significantly faster, must have been 90mph+. As the thundering herd swept around to the right the car passing me on the left came into view. It was being driven by a young girl who was bending over to look into her rearview mirror while she applied eye makeup.

What'd ya gonna to do?

Poppy

[Protagonist]

Originally Posted by Birdmaestro

But it can be scary being in the flow...

Everyone has a comfortable driving speed, above which it gets scary because you instinctively KNOW your reactions aren't up to the task of going that fast.

As soon as you realize that you can't SAFELY keep up with the flow of traffic, it's time to exit and find an alternate route. Or for those rare areas where the isn't a good alternate route, at least wait for an alternate time of day when traffic isn't as heavy and you're not in danger of becoming a rolling roadblock. Part of good defensive driving is knowing when not to drive…

[John&Vicki]

Pro...

You may have to stay out of California. 7x24 chaos as far as I can tell.

Poppy