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Old 08-22-2014, 07:00 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by zigzagguzzi View Post
Years ago when ABS first was used on motorcycles, it was proven an experienced rider could out stop the ABS on wet or dry pavement. No matter how many so called safety devices are added to cars, the average poor drivers will still try to kill us and themselves. People rely on ABS etc, to compensate for poor driving skills. Be careful out there! Jim
There's the problem. ABS was never intended to stop a vehicle in a shorter distance. It may, on some surfaces, and definitely won't on others. It was designed to maintain steering control during an event which would cause a skid w/o ABS.

Very common misperception that refuses to go away after decades now.
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Old 08-22-2014, 11:25 AM   #114
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Hi, the fastest stop in a motor vehicle is with the most pressure on the brake pedal without skidding the tires. Most people can't do this so ABS is best for them. Early on, with ABS, people would hear strange noises and a funny feeling in the brake pedal and would let off of it. This was actually the worst thing to do.
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Old 08-22-2014, 01:17 PM   #115
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Add me to the list of people who really, really, dislike the above mentioned car ad.

Driving is not supposed to be a secondary act. Driving should be the first thing we do behind the wheel not an afterthought.
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Old 08-22-2014, 01:23 PM   #116
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Safety: Learning from Incidents, Accidents & Crashes

I drove for a long time without antilock brakes. I made a few very hard stops, never locked my brakes.

In the time I have driven with antilock, I have never needed it, but on two occasions it caused me a bad scare. Once on gravel, once on snow.

I REALLY NEEDED for the brakes to lock and they would not.

The incident on the snow was really bad, my brakes were worthless even though I was driving under 20 mph.

Somehow I avoided an accident, but my brakes were nothing but a distraction.

I managed to avoid the truck that was crossway on the narrow country road and avoid the trees in the ditch. Only brushing the truck on my right, and only brushing my drivers side mirror on the left. No damage, just brushes.

After I got stopped I was rewarded with an enthusiastic cry of "that was awesome!" made by a younger man on scene....

Sometimes antilock brakes suck. All I had in this case was steering, and physics. IMO my steering would have been better if I would have been able to make my tires bite a little, especially when my tires were in the ditch.
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Old 08-22-2014, 01:35 PM   #117
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The incident on the snow was really bad, my brakes were worthless even though I was driving under 20 mph.
Last time I drove on snow, long time ago (I didn't always live in Louisiana) I got by without ever using the foot brake. By carefully planning my moves and not driving too fast for the road and visibility conditions, I was able to decelerate by down-shifting (yes, you can downshift an automatic) with the final braking by using the parking brake so braking force was only applied to the rear wheels and I could still steer with the free-turning front wheels.

That's not really what parking brakes are for, but you do what you gotta in order to be safe…
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Old 08-22-2014, 01:47 PM   #118
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Safety: Learning from Incidents, Accidents & Crashes

I needed the front brakes to lock, i needed them to bite.

I was caught by surprise by this snow. It wasn't supposed to be that day.

Anyway I didn't expect to encounter a truck spun out half way up a steep hill. By the time I saw the truck as I crested the top of the hill it was an oh shot moment.

The roads were more slick than my 4WD truck had let me know till that point...

I was going slow, but not slow enough it turns out.

Anyway, I am of the opinion that a little bit of controlled wheel lockage would have been a good thing.
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Old 08-22-2014, 03:48 PM   #119
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My Mercedes ML500 has a panic button that has the ABS completely take over in a dangerous, slow speed situation. I live in a snowy area and never used it in a real situation, but I have experimented with it a few times and it always seemed to function well. I recall one of the tests was at slow speed down a slick surface. I hit the switch, left the pedals alone, and it produced a perfect stop.

I have no idea if it would work while towing, what the upper speed limits are to use it or whether it would apply the trailer brakes. I never intend to try it, testing or real life.

In my opinion ABS efficacy while towing is a difficult subject to discuss. Without empirical evidence gained by testing it's mainly conjecture, speculation and opinion. It's kind of frustrating how little real world testing is done with towing.

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Old 08-22-2014, 04:14 PM   #120
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When we switched to disc brakes, we were not told by the selling distributor that the selected brake system for the trailer was incompatible with nearly all factory installed brake controllers. Driving home from the disc installation, I learned that tidbit after the fact with all kinds of issues. My laundry stayed clean, but just barely through the mountains.

We switched to a DirecLink NE controller in the truck. We bypassed all the trucks wiring related to brakes and battery charging. The truck brakes think there is no trailer attached so no fault codes are thrown.

Meanwhile, the DirecLink shares the OBDII port with my Insight Edge engine gage system. It is immediately aware whenever the truck brake pedal is touched or throttle is let up. It applies "power" to the brake pump immediately if the brakes stay on longer than a simple tap to signal. The ultimate system would be the Tuson ABS brake pump coupled with the their DirecLink NE controller. That would also require changing the the current rotors for ones with the index rings for ABS.
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Old 08-22-2014, 04:19 PM   #121
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I can see the same thing happening with these new "lane departure" warnings and such, people becoming such slaves to them that they fail to pay attention to the traffic around them the old-fashioned way— exactly like the driver in the commercial. How exactly does this work, keeping people safer by making them worse drivers?
This is probably complete BS, because a car dealer told us this, but when we were shopping for our Flex they were trying to talk us into buying a newer one because it had all these gadgets - lane awareness, front impact awareness, self parking, and of course rear sensors and backup cameras, traction control, etc, etc. They said one of their salesmen had driven from Portland to Eugene down I5, without his hands on the wheel, letting the flex keep an eye on the lanes and correct as necessary, slowing down and speeding up as necessary using the cruise control and front sensors. And of course when he got where he was going it could parallel park itself. Probably BS, but that was more frightening than inspirational as far as I was concerned.

We took the oldest, lowest feature model we could get. I still prefer to DRIVE when I'm driving.
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Old 08-22-2014, 04:19 PM   #122
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Switz...

That's really sophisticated technology. Can you give us an idea of what vehicles it could be installed on and what kind of costs are involved?

Thanks,
Poppy
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Old 08-22-2014, 05:34 PM   #123
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ABS was always advertised showing a vehicle stopping more quickly in a straight line, no mention of turning. It actually allows the vehicle to go farther before stopping than one without ABS. If irpt would allow some steering, then that would also increase the distance. Perhaps some aren't old enough to have driven non ABS cars, some with good brakes, some without. But what I said in my previous post, I stand behind. ABS is for the average driver, it helps them stop, it helps me stop, but it may not be the panacea that some believe. Do I think cars should have it, absolutely, because the vast majority of us need it! Jim
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Old 08-22-2014, 05:48 PM   #124
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In my opinion, disc brakes should be on all Airstream trailers as they are supposed to be technology leaders.

Their costs would be under $600 for a single axle and under $1,200 for dual axle trailers for the Kodiak 12" Dacromet Finish rotors. They already prefer and use the Dexter hydraulic brake pump on their conversions (sub $700).

We went with the Titan brand BrakeRite II SD hydraulic pump system because the electronics module is separate from the actual pump and is field (on the road) replaceable (I have a spare electronics module in the truck). The pump is in the $750 class. It took about 12 man hours for the conversion with a person who has done dozens of these conversions doing the work.

BrakeRite II SD overview:

BrakeRite II SD Kit Electric / Hydraulic Actuator 4835700 by Titan

The Tuson DirecLink NE hydraulic brake controller was around $395. We ran a dedicated #10 wire from the battery positive post to a 30 amp circuit breaker and then to the 7 way plug on the back of the truck. We ran a dedicated #10 wire from the negative post to the 7 way plug on the back of the truck. We ran a dedicated "blue" wire from the battery positive post to a 30 amp circuit breaker and then the Tuson DirecLink controller power to brake lead. We took #10 wire from the DirecLink to the brake pin 7 way plug on the back of the truck. We disconnected the factory wires going to those three posts on the 7 way plug.

The DirecLink information:

Tuson RV Brakes - Trailer Brake Controllers, Sway Control, Brake Actuators, Hydraulic ABS

If I knew then what I know now, I would have installed ABS style rotors and the Tuson ActuLink ABS pump and would not have that expense to replace what we did install.

The factory price is around $3,000 to convert to disc brakes, exclusive of the truck side. I think I am close to $3,000 for the complete brake system modification.

This link gives a great overview of disc brakes performance over drum brakes:

DirecLink from Tuson RV Brakes has Finally ABS Trailer Brakes for fast smooth safer stops, Anti-Lock-Brakes for trailers,ABS brakes for horse trailers, DirecLink trailer brake controller networks with trucks computer for faster braking and diagnosis.
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Old 08-22-2014, 05:53 PM   #125
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Question. ABS or disc brakes. Which was the greatest improvement in safety for auto? Together they are great, but which was the greater improvement. I swear, hitting the drum brakes on some old autos and you felt like you sped up. Sorry if I hijacked the thread. Jim
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Old 08-22-2014, 08:12 PM   #126
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Automatic transmission made the need for antilock brakes. With a clutch, the engine idles, the brakes are the same on all wheels in almost all conditions , because nothing is making one pair turn while the other locks up and renders steering useless. I always preferred sticks, but now you hardly can't get a manual with more than 2000 or 3000 lbs tow rating. In a stick, I could control braking and steering, and avoided many situations where automatics would crash.


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