Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 08-20-2014, 10:16 AM   #81
Rivet Master
 
John&Vicki's Avatar
 
1990 25' Excella
Sisters , Oregon
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,033
Images: 4
Airstream Accident Near Tyler, Texas

As this thread is about learning from incidents, accidents and crashes, I should of posted a link to the crash that prompted me to post the tongue weight procedure to keep things in context. The discussion was started on the Casita Club Forum by someone who witnessed an Airstream accident caused by sway in January of this year:

Saw A Trailer Sway Then Roll Over Today. (Not A Casita!) - The Casita Club Forum - The Casita Club Forums

The Casita Club Forum contains a lot of good information, just like this one.

Poppy
__________________

__________________
John & Vicki
WBCCI #4291

Two roads diverged in a wood, and I took the one less traveled. ~ Robert Frost
John&Vicki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2014, 10:46 AM   #82
Rivet Master
 
John&Vicki's Avatar
 
1990 25' Excella
Sisters , Oregon
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,033
Images: 4
The accident I just posted a link to involved a 19' Bambi towed by a Ford truck and was discussed in an issue of "Airstream Life" in an article written by Andy Thompson. Here's a quote from the article:

This was likely an accident where a lot of seemingly small items combined to create a loss of control. The owner had received some bad advice to remove his 20" rims and install 17" rims with a much less controlled tire. The hitch setup was not good so there was little if any weight transfer. This further exacerbated the poor tire control by unloading the front wheels. The accident was probably precipitated by an event like wind shear from a truck or a strong cross wind. Once a strong sway started, the driver applying the brakes on the truck would then complete the formula needed to have a loss of control accident (emphasis added).

Just about a perfect formula for a sway induced accident.

Poppy
__________________

__________________
John & Vicki
WBCCI #4291

Two roads diverged in a wood, and I took the one less traveled. ~ Robert Frost
John&Vicki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2014, 11:33 AM   #83
Lost in America
 
mojo's Avatar
 
2015 27' FB International
2006 25' Safari FB SE
2004 19' International CCD
Santa Fe , New Mexico
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,726
Quote:
Originally Posted by Birdmaestro View Post
There is a lot of discussion here about getting weight right: observing limits, balancing correctly, etc. I came across what looks like a good way to measure hitch weight on another forum. It enables you to use a common bathroom scale.
The bathroom scale method gives you an estimate of hitch weight but is not the most stable set up and weights can be off by 200 lbs by weighing at the jack stand as opposed to the coupler at the ball. A sherline hitch scale can provide better accuracy. Plus a 200lb difference may negate some of the confusion about true hitch weight and all the referrals to published GCVW and hitch weights discussed on the forums.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_4731.jpg
Views:	72
Size:	343.2 KB
ID:	219431  
__________________
This is the strangest life I've ever known - J. Morrison

2015 Airstream International Serenity 27FB
2017
Chevy Silverado 2500HD Duramax Diesel

mojo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2014, 11:54 AM   #84
Rivet Master
 
John&Vicki's Avatar
 
1990 25' Excella
Sisters , Oregon
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,033
Images: 4
Mojo...

Inaccurate by 200 pounds would make weighing by bathroom scale worthless. How could AS recommend it? Where did you get your information?

Thanks,
Poppy
__________________
John & Vicki
WBCCI #4291

Two roads diverged in a wood, and I took the one less traveled. ~ Robert Frost
John&Vicki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2014, 12:08 PM   #85
Rivet Master
 
AWCHIEF's Avatar
 
2006 23' Safari SE
Biloxi , Mississippi
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 8,278
Images: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by mojo View Post
The bathroom scale method gives you an estimate of hitch weight but is not the most stable set up and weights can be off by 200 lbs by weighing at the jack stand as opposed to the coupler at the ball. A sherline hitch scale can provide better accuracy. Plus a 200lb difference may negate some of the confusion about true hitch weight and all the referrals to published GCVW and hitch weights discussed on the forums.
Can I borrow your scale?
__________________
MICHAEL

Do you know what a learning experience is? A learning experience is one of those things that says "You know that thing that you just did? Don't do that."
AWCHIEF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2014, 12:15 PM   #86
Full Time Adventurer
 
BoldAdventure's Avatar
 
2007 27' International CCD FB
Nomadic , USA
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 2,748
Quote:
Originally Posted by Birdmaestro View Post
Mojo...

Inaccurate by 200 pounds would make weighing by bathroom scale worthless. How could AS recommend it? Where did you get your information?

Thanks,
Poppy
Oddly enough, some quick math shows if you had 200lbs to Airstreams published numbers for their hitch weights, you end up with numbers closer to what people have shared as their empty trailer hitch weight.

Maybe that's why the promote it. So they can claim their hitches are lite?
__________________
Family of 5 exploring the USA with a Ram Power Wagon & Airstream in tow.
OUR BLOG | INSTAGRAM
BoldAdventure is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2014, 01:39 PM   #87
Wise Elder
 
Jammer's Avatar
 
2010 30' Classic
Vintage Kin Owner
South of the river , Minnesota
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,165
Well let's summarize.

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f48/...ay-124057.html - car following the Airstream collided with it, causing loss of control.

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f161...ml#post1313059 - Loss of control with no known cause, possibly due to tire failure. Reese dual cam

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f351...nce-28912.html - Loss of control on downhill grade, possibly due to partial or complete failure of the trailer brakes.

https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=...o/oxLV0n3tvggJ - sudden lane change to avoid another vehicle leads to loss of control. Reese dual cam

Nelson: Airstream vs. School Bus – No Injuries | Blue Ridge Life Magazine : - not enough data to draw any conclusions

Saw A Trailer Sway Then Roll Over Today. (Not A Casita&#33 - The Casita Club Forum - The Casita Club Forums - loss of control accident, not enough data to conclude anything more

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-K3WIFeLo5x...0/IMG_2391.JPG - loss of control under winter conditions, road surface may have had slippery spots. Conventional WD hitch, unclear whether sway control was used

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f464...tch-82925.html - loss of control accident, cause unclear - Hensley hitch

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f42/...ime-46232.html - collision from police SUV with lights on that was, apparently, not being driven in a safe manner.

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f42/...one-27195.html - loss of control due to icy road

I can't draw any conclusions from that. Maybe someone else can.

I will observe that, to the extent we can determine, WD hitches were present in all the crashes, and none appear to involve overmatched tow vehicles.
__________________
To learn to see below the surface, you must adjust your altitude
Jammer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2014, 02:28 PM   #88
Lost in America
 
mojo's Avatar
 
2015 27' FB International
2006 25' Safari FB SE
2004 19' International CCD
Santa Fe , New Mexico
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,726
Quote:
Originally Posted by Birdmaestro View Post
Mojo...

Inaccurate by 200 pounds would make weighing by bathroom scale worthless. How could AS recommend it? Where did you get your information?

Thanks,
Poppy
By weighing at the hitch coupler and the jack stand with the Sherline scale. 200 lbs difference.

This is why crunching numbers relying on published weights and limits are worthless unless you go to a truck scale and weigh YOUR trailer and TV under all configurations. Only then will you know what's safe.
__________________
This is the strangest life I've ever known - J. Morrison

2015 Airstream International Serenity 27FB
2017
Chevy Silverado 2500HD Duramax Diesel

mojo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2014, 02:29 PM   #89
Rivet Master
 
John&Vicki's Avatar
 
1990 25' Excella
Sisters , Oregon
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,033
Images: 4
Someone sent me the following PM:

The number one problem I see with the "discussion" of this whole subject is that it cannot in any meaningful way address the "most important" aspect of accident avoidance, and that is....driver skill.

I'm not sure it's the most important. According to Inland Andy improper setup is responsible for 2/3 to 3/4 of all accidents (no doubt often compounded by lack of driver skill). So that seems pretty important also. And there has been discussion here about driver skills - the proper way to respond to a sway and to practice the proper way to practice the proper response to a sway for example.

It can get depressing reading about all these mishaps. I hadn't realized there were so many. I might not become a better driver as a result of what I learn here, but it's motivated me to try.

Poppy
__________________
John & Vicki
WBCCI #4291

Two roads diverged in a wood, and I took the one less traveled. ~ Robert Frost
John&Vicki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2014, 02:33 PM   #90
Rivet Master
 
AWCHIEF's Avatar
 
2006 23' Safari SE
Biloxi , Mississippi
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 8,278
Images: 33
Not discounting research done in the past, but it would be nice to see some info based on current suspension and WD systems technology. The new automatic Air Suspensions and WD systems are a far cry from those used 20 or 30 years ago.
__________________
MICHAEL

Do you know what a learning experience is? A learning experience is one of those things that says "You know that thing that you just did? Don't do that."
AWCHIEF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2014, 04:34 PM   #91
Full Time Adventurer
 
BoldAdventure's Avatar
 
2007 27' International CCD FB
Nomadic , USA
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 2,748
Quote:
Originally Posted by Birdmaestro View Post
According to Inland Andy improper setup is responsible for 2/3 to 3/4 of all accidents (no doubt often compounded by lack of driver skill). So that seems pretty important also. And there has been discussion here about driver skills - the proper way to respond to a sway and to practice the proper way to practice the proper response to a sway for example.

It can get depressing reading about all these mishaps. I hadn't realized there were so many. I might not become a better driver as a result of what I learn here, but it's motivated me to try.

Poppy
Wow, well that settles it with that bold claim. Who can argue with the solid facts and research.
__________________
Family of 5 exploring the USA with a Ram Power Wagon & Airstream in tow.
OUR BLOG | INSTAGRAM
BoldAdventure is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2014, 04:56 PM   #92
Rivet Master
 
J. Morgan's Avatar
 
1972 31' Sovereign
1975 31' Excella 500
Currently Looking...
Benton , Arkansas
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 5,842
Images: 11
Safety: Learning from Incidents, Accidents & Crashes

Pretty much, when we are talking about "single vehicle" towing accidents, apart from sudden equipment failure, all accidents are a result of driver error.

This is true whether the tow vehicle is over size or under size, whether a state of the art hitch is used or the trailer is towed on the ball.

Whatever the limitations of the vehicle, it is the job of the driver to know these limitations and to drive accordingly.

Even so, there will be accidents, and even good drivers are subject to error.
__________________
The fact that I am opinionated does not presuppose that I am wrong......

J. Morgan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2014, 05:52 PM   #93
Rivet Master
 
John&Vicki's Avatar
 
1990 25' Excella
Sisters , Oregon
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,033
Images: 4
Quote:
Originally Posted by BoldAdventure View Post
Wow, well that settles it with that bold claim. Who can argue with the solid facts and research.
Now I know that Millennials have a penchant for irony. As a old guy I'm not quite sure how to take your comment.

Poppy
__________________
John & Vicki
WBCCI #4291

Two roads diverged in a wood, and I took the one less traveled. ~ Robert Frost
John&Vicki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2014, 11:57 PM   #94
Rivet Master
 
ROBERTSUNRUS's Avatar

 
2005 25' Safari
Salem , Oregon
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 7,805
Images: 18
Blog Entries: 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by AWCHIEF View Post
Not discounting research done in the past, but it would be nice to see some info based on current suspension and WD systems technology. The new automatic Air Suspensions and WD systems are a far cry from those used 20 or 30 years ago.

Hi, as much as a certain person claims that air bags are a big no no, my 2000 Lincoln Navigator came from the factory with rear air suspension. It also came with the factory tow package and the owner's manual tells you how to set up a WD hitch with this vehicle. I think I'll trust the Ford engineers. [well I have for about nine years now] Maybe that one year only 1958 Ford air suspension wasn't too hot.
__________________
Bob

2005 Safari 25-B
"Le Petit Chateau Argent"
[ Small Silver Castle ]
2000 Navigator / 2014 F-150 Eco-Boost / Equal-i-zer / P-3
YAMAHA 2400 / AIR #12144
ROBERTSUNRUS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2014, 07:18 AM   #95
Rivet Master
 
Currently Looking...
Gainesville , Florida
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 7,054
Blog Entries: 2
If you get a Hensley so you can tow faster, aren't you partially negating the advantages as far as safety is concerned? Ideally, I believe, would be a Hensley and a speed of less than 65 mph. Jim
xrvr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2014, 08:57 AM   #96
4 Rivet Member
 
kevin242's Avatar
 
1977 25' Tradewind
Waskesiu Lake , Saskatchewan
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 393
Images: 15
It has been said already in this thread that there are usually several contributing factors to most incidents. If you remove any one of the factors proactively, the probability of a mishap decreases.

With today's tow vehicles, it's easy to tow at 65+ mph (105+ kmh) but the forces at work when things go wrong have remained unchanged over the years. Physics is physics...

The simplest factor that is under the driver's control is speed. Check this out:

__________________
Every home needs a dog, and every dog needs a home.

1977 25' Tradewind (with two ... three... FOUR dogs)
2011 Ram 1500 Quad cab, 5.7 Hemi, tow pkg.
kevin242 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2014, 09:24 AM   #97
Rivet Master
 
J. Morgan's Avatar
 
1972 31' Sovereign
1975 31' Excella 500
Currently Looking...
Benton , Arkansas
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 5,842
Images: 11
Safety: Learning from Incidents, Accidents & Crashes

Just for context,,,,, traveling at 45 mph the car will stop faster still....

And at 20mph even safer.

In a model T 20 MPH is fast enough, and 45 MPH is scary fast....

A reasonable speed is different whether in traffic or on a rural interstate. Assuming a stable rig, there are times when 50 is too fast, and imho there are times when 60 is too slow.

By the way,,, Regarding the video, I contend that I had been in the place of either car in a car with good non antilock brakes, my car would not have hit the trailer.....
__________________
The fact that I am opinionated does not presuppose that I am wrong......

J. Morgan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2014, 09:46 AM   #98
Rivet Master
 
John&Vicki's Avatar
 
1990 25' Excella
Sisters , Oregon
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,033
Images: 4
Quote:
Originally Posted by J. Morgan View Post
Just for context,,,,, traveling at 45 mph the car will stop faster still....

And at 20mph even safer.

In a model T 20 MPH is fast enough, and 45 MPH is scary fast....

A reasonable speed is different whether in traffic or on a rural interstate. Assuming a stable rig, there are times when 50 is too fast, and imho there are times when 60 is too slow.
That V squared thing is a bitch. Fortunately I think most here use common sense in determining how fast they drive.

For me one of the biggest challenges when it comes to speed is traffic flow. I agree that it's safest to stay in the flow (which for me when I'm towing is the lane flowing the slowest) as opposed to being an impediment. Slow drivers on the track are often referred to as a "moving chicane" and it can create a real hazard.

But it can be scary being in the flow...

A couple of years ago I was driving a very capable Porsche, one that I had driven on the track a couple of weeks before, on one of the freeways around San Francisco. The road had perhaps 5-6 lanes and I was in the second to the inside lane and going along with the flow. The road was in disrepair, as many of the highways are in California, and very bumpy, but that didn't seem to discourage anyone. I glanced at my speedometer and the flow was 85mph.

It seemed frantic to me and I was paying attention - I had felt safer on the track. We came to a large sweeper and no one slowed down. The inside lane was going significantly faster, must have been 90mph+. As the thundering herd swept around to the right the car passing me on the left came into view. It was being driven by a young girl who was bending over to look into her rearview mirror while she applied eye makeup.

What'd ya gonna to do?

Poppy
__________________
John & Vicki
WBCCI #4291

Two roads diverged in a wood, and I took the one less traveled. ~ Robert Frost
John&Vicki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2014, 09:54 AM   #99
Figment of My Imagination
 
Protagonist's Avatar
 
2012 Interstate Coach
From All Over , More Than Anywhere Else
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 10,749
Quote:
Originally Posted by Birdmaestro View Post
But it can be scary being in the flow...
Everyone has a comfortable driving speed, above which it gets scary because you instinctively KNOW your reactions aren't up to the task of going that fast.

As soon as you realize that you can't SAFELY keep up with the flow of traffic, it's time to exit and find an alternate route. Or for those rare areas where the isn't a good alternate route, at least wait for an alternate time of day when traffic isn't as heavy and you're not in danger of becoming a rolling roadblock. Part of good defensive driving is knowing when not to drive…
__________________
Cats and ultraleather Airstream upholstery don't mix!
Protagonist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2014, 10:08 AM   #100
Rivet Master
 
John&Vicki's Avatar
 
1990 25' Excella
Sisters , Oregon
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,033
Images: 4
Pro...

You may have to stay out of California. 7x24 chaos as far as I can tell.

Poppy
__________________

__________________
John & Vicki
WBCCI #4291

Two roads diverged in a wood, and I took the one less traveled. ~ Robert Frost
John&Vicki is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
2006 Safari Dometic RM2551... Crashes Ray Eklund Refrigerators 3 08-08-2008 03:01 PM
Lighning crashes tin can luv Our Community 2 04-30-2004 07:28 PM
Airstream pulled by Expedition crashes... qqq Our Community 13 07-01-2003 02:32 PM


Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Disclaimer:

This website is not affiliated with or endorsed by the Airstream, Inc. or any of its affiliates. Airstream is a registered trademark of Airstream Inc. All rights reserved. Airstream trademark used under license to Social Knowledge LLC.



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:04 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.