Packing a Gun, Mister~

[femuse]

The way I see it, the 2 are really different cases:

#1_ you are on the second floor at home (tough to imagine for us ....), somebody is coming upstairs, and you are 100% sure it's not a family member, a friend, or the dog. Call the cops, and get you gun ready. You can be prepared. No effect of surprise.

#2_ you are in your car, your trailer, ..., someone points a gun in your face, you are not even sure how many people you are facing. That's a pretty different scenario.

In the #2 case, I really don't believe it's a good idea to come out blasting.

[85MH325]

Both Chantal and Eric make good points. Sometimes the best course of action is no action at all. In any critical incident, time is your best friend. Slowing things down generally defuses situations.

Tactics, planning, and thinking on your feet are far more important than hardware or physical prowess. One thing everyone who has commented on this thread has going for them is a lack of 'victim mentality', and I applaud you for that. Many, many people in our society are victims, not so much by other people as by their lack of understanding and observation of their world around them.

The first defense against being a victim is to avoid situations where you put yourself at risk. Obviously, sometimes those things happen anyway, and that's where fore-thought, planning, and keeping your head will allow you to not only survive, but potentially win. That's where 'victim mentality' has no place.

My favorite phrase is "Think tactically". It applies to driving across town, getting groceries, crossing a street, or doing practically any other routine chore. It involves knowing what your surroundings are and having a plan should things go south. It includes all facets of life.

Then again, there ARE those who believe: "If you manage to keep your head while all those around you are losing theirs, you probably don't understand what's really happening!"

[jpurdy]

just a thought

I didn't vote because I am into guns and I do leave them at home.
This is good discussion with many good points brought out, but it causes me to wonder how easy it is to gain access to your trailers/motorhomes.
My motorhome has a dead bolt that is activated from the inside only. it is not easily defeated. if someone wanted in it would be through a window. at that time a softball bat would be a deadly weapon. I don't see how anyone could sleep through all that noise so there is little surprise.
touching off a round inside an aluminum can would probally do a number on you and your families hearing.

[femuse]

100% with jpurdy on that one.

They do not always know how many you are in there, if you are armed, if you have dogs. And, they most certainly are not familiar with the layout. They will have to be able to open the door: it still takes my mother in law at least a minute to remember how to work the 2 doors.

Nobody is going to have time to jump you so fast so you don't have time to attack first:

that's why we carry our "bonker", better than a bat. Just go to a truck stop and get the shinny metal club truckers use to check tires. I think too that if you want to wave that in front of somebody, it does not look very friendly.

And it's 100% legal.

[Silvertwinkie]

Originally posted by femuse
And it's 100% legal.

So are guns if they are registerd, knives, bow and arrows legal as well. If you kill someone with a club or otherwise, lethal force is still lethal force. You can, even by accident kill someone with one of those clubs.

As for the security of the doors, you all had better think again. Remember "The Rape of The SilverBell." That poor Doctor that we all felt sorry for??

They pryed his A/S motorhome door like we open a pop can. A good crowbar will make the door crack WIDE open. Remember it's an aluminum frame and skin. The door is mostly just a deterrent. If someone wants in, they WILL gain entry into any standard RV or home for that matter. In a metro area, ususally Police are nearby, however when out far away, there are few peace officers around that could get there in time. I would by no means bet the farm on that door, even with deadbolt holding more than a few minutes and I sure am not going to stand there with a club or bat.

Also, in regard discharging a weapon in an enclosed space, I would rather move the family to the bathroom of the Bambi and have it out if need be. The last thing I'm worried about is the loud noise. If someone is coming in, my family is already in grave danger. I will minimize any further risk to them as possible, but not knowing the party on the other side of the door or window or their final intentions, I may, after assessment, judge the risk of the person trying to break in greater than the risk of moving the fam into the bathroom and dealing with the issue at hand.

Keep in mind, this is a worst case senario, but as Roger said, tactical. Always keep your mind open to all that is around you and all possibilities no matter what your weapon of choice is.

I am not saying the trucker's club is a bad idea. I am also not saying the door is totally worthless. However the club is not any better or worse than any other weapon (knive, bow and arrow, firearm etc). The door is not any stronger than what it was designed for. The purpose of any weapon is to disable, discourage or terminate a course of action against you (being a lawful citizen, of course).

Just my .02

Eric

[femuse]

. However the club is not any better or worse than any other weapon (knive, bow and arrow, firearm etc)

Well,..... you shot yourself in the foot on that one.

Believe it or not, but Mike's parents were making archery equipement for a living, and he still has a lot of knowledge on the subect:

I just consulted with him:

"Anything his better than a bow and arrow for self defence. In or outside a trailer. We'll stick with the bonker"

[Silvertwinkie]

Did you say that anything is better than an bow and arrow?

I would not doubt it, but a bow and arrow can be lethal as well, so I mentioned it.

I would never use one for self defense, but some may.

As for the bonker, you gotta use what you feel is best. Me, I'm stickn' with old faithful.

Eric

[femuse]

OK, I see the problem here.

What "caliber" of bow are we talking about?

Talking about 1967 vintage (Mike's last contact with bows):

they had 48" bows for hunting. Mike could shoot one like that standing in front the bed.

You cannot carry it loaded, so you have to string it first, then put an arrow in it, ready to shoot: 20s.
But, you are talking about a trained professional here. Not a mere amateur, like the ones he remembers shooting their eye out trying to do the same thing. He used to string bows 50 times a day, so your time may vary

now if you are talking about target shooting bows, they are about 70": shooting one of those in a trailer will be more of a challenge

[Silvertwinkie]

Heck, I am not pro when it comes to bows. I just mentioned them as a non firearm, still lethal weapon.

To me there are big bows and small ones, with a few in between. That is about the extent of my bow knowledge!

Cars, is a whole different story, I do know a little bit, comptuers too.

Women, I am totally lost.

Life, I keep on learnin'!

Eric

[davidz71]

Don't even kid yourself that police will be nearby, even in a metropolitan area. Response time, if lucky, may be 4-5 minutes if not more and much can happen in that time. Many of you have good points and one of them is that if they already have the draw on you, you might be better off to do what they say. However, if I sense that they are having me drive to a secluded area where they will shoot me and I will not be found until I expire then I will choose the best time to be shot where someone might see what happened and an ambulance could get to me. Sounds morbid but that is what we have been taught in our department. I have been lucky in that I have never had to shoot anyone but I have had to draw a weapon to prevent two individuals from escaping. I went by the book and was ready to shoot if I had to because that was what my job was. There was no hesitation because it was them or my job and they weren't worth me losing my job. Like Hostage Negotiation, no two situations are ever alike so you have to be prepared for anything. No one knows how you will be affected during Post Traumatic Shock Syndrome but I've taught enough classes in it that I know what the effects might be.

Bottom line is that I chose to carry a gun because I have been trained to and I have entered many a competition because I heard that it adds the stress needed to help you in a life and death situation. Makes sense to me and has helped me.

85MH325, ditto on the .45 ACP 1911s. I shoot 2 in competition and carry one for self defense when not carrying a SIG229.

femuse, I wish I could remember which well known authority taught disarming and shooting techniques from the sitting/driver's position. While I have thought about and walked through several methods that might work for me, I wanted to take the course after looking at the course content to expand my horizons.

[Silvertwinkie]

You know, I just took a police training class that the township offered. It was very interesting as plain clothed civi to realize that if something really bad happens, you are really on you own. Even in the larger metro areas, you are right, there are just so many officers per person, making it hard, then there is travel time.

I try to make the glass half full, but carry a firearm just in case!

Good post!

Eric

[85MH325]

I think that law enforcement in general has done itself and the public a huge disservice by insisting, over the years, that the public not take action on it's own behalf, but leave the bad guys to the cops. It's unrealistic, and it just doesn't work.

When you're being assaulted, unless a cop just happens to see it, you are on your own. It is up to you to deal with it, usually alone. The reality of life, whether it's walking across a street or facing down an armed crook is that your daily safety lies in your own hands.

Fortunately AND unfortunately, we have a constitution that prohibits law enforcement from taking pre-emptive measures to stop a crime before it occurs. Law enforcement, is by its very definition, a re-active pursuit rather than a pro-active pursuit.

So, we enjoy the rights of personal freedom to come and go and carry on our lives as we see fit. The problem is that people who prey on others enjoy the same freedoms until they're caught after they commit some crime. Law enforcement may suspect them of committing crimes, believe that they have committed a crime, expect that they will commit another crime, and follow them until they do but can't take action until the crime has been committed.

The best that each of us can do is to determine how we will cope individually in preparing for an eventuality that we hope will never occur. As an analogy, I guess it's like having an earthquake kit and saving bottles of water in Southern California for the earthquake everyone hopes won't happen in our lifetimes.

[davidz71]

85MH325,
You hit the nail on the head, reactive vs. proactive. The smart thing for anyone to do whether they carry a gun or not is to always be in the proactive mode. I really like Col. Jeff Cooper's Color Code of Readiness/Awareness:
Condition White- not a clue, totally relaxed, unaware of surroundings (how you feel while inside the house with locked doors)
Condition Yellow- "relaxed" alertness (aware of surroundings and that a threat might occur)
Condition Orange- heightened sense of awareness that something is wrong or about to become dangerous
Condition Red- You realize and accept that a threat is now likely and may require up to a lethal response

You should always leave Condition While at the house and be alert to your surrounds which may give you clues a threat is imminent.

This is not paranoia but a contingency plan so that you do not go into what we call Condition Black- (Blind Panic where you run around like a chicken with it's head cut off, freeze or worse, fall to the ground and curl up in a ball). Simple things like parking your car while shopping after dark near the front of the store and under a light, placing your car keys in your fist in such a way to gouge out the eyes of an attacker and/or carrying mace (preferably OC/CS in the other hand.

[jpurdy]

Silvertwinkie,

you are right that something bad could happen and you must take steps at that time.
I agree that you must be ready I agree with the color code from Jeff cooper but I'll relax and be at condition yellow and enjoy life.

just don't put yourself in bad situations.
when I backpack I NEVER setup my tent within 5 miles of a traveled road. that way you should never have company. its too far for the company to walk. in 12 years I only had one exception and that was a couple of 20 year olds that over extended themselves. they got my spare flashlight and water bottle.

it is now 11:30pm and there are three whitetail in my front yard
and I am taking a cup of coffee to the rocking chair on the porch of my log home and enjoy the moon and stars(God's light show).
and the wildlife.......

oh yeah glad you took the course..I shoot weekly
practice practice.....

[femuse]

can you say burned out ?

There is a code you forgot "code green". Let me explain (it's a bit long):

After spending about 20 years in Philadelphia, always in the upper limit of code orange, we opted for a move: to "code green".

We lived 2 blocks north of a Project, 3 blocks south from the hippest touristy/night life trap, and surrounded by yuppies. Poverty/drugs, drunks, money & flashy habits.

We were in a business street that closed at 5 or 6pm. Then, it's was a different picture, especially on the weekend. White boys & girls from the suburbs, in search of dope, victims running south after stolen properties,.... We were stepping on dope dealers on our door step. They lived in our back yard. And, they are much worse places in Philly.

Then after 2am, it got worse: a replay of "Night of the Living Dead". We spent hours watching a the windows, following all the low lives we had started to "know". (me, often disguised as a bag lady). We were calling the police non stop: broken store windows, cars broken into, houses with broken door,...... We often were the one telling the cops were they were hidding, we knew their habits so well.

Relatively, that was not that bad. Then Mike took a partime job, at night, in a factory, in the "Philadelphia Bad Lands".

I don't think they have come up yet with a color for that code of readiness. Just step in there, and its a different world.
Mike was hired too to respond to the burglar alarm company calls at night, open the door for the cops, and try to repair the openings that were made. Sometimes 2 or 3 times a night !!!!!

After the place had a fire (caused by burglars who could not afford flash lights, and used candles), we had to do security on the place for 10 days. A memory we will "cherish" for a lifetime.
A huge old place occupying 1/2 a city block. For blocks around, everything looks bombed out.
Place stacked with shaky piles of boxes, full of hidden corners, 4 floors and a basement, no working light after the fire, expect on the 1st floor.
"They" were crawling all over the place !!!! Through the basement, through the roof,.... We had to do rounds upstairs: when in the freight elevator, more than once, you could hear them running in the dark.
The 2nd floor metal emergency exit was full of bullet holes !!!
Just to make it shorter: the type of place were cops wait for reinforcement before they decide to show up. A friend of a friend who is an anthropologist, has lived in the wildest places in the world, came to town. Our friend took her to visit the "Badlands": somewhere, running around in some jungle you will find an hysterical woman who swore she will never set foot again in Philadelphia.

As a summary, I want to say that there is a limit on the time were you can stand to live between color code orange and red. Every day and night, before you are ready to snap.
We have regaled more than one country cop, from south Jersey to Maine, to VA, with all the stories we have acumulated for a lifetime. They all tell us they enjoy very much their dull - in comparaison - life.

Where we are, in VA, someone nearly ran over our mail box: the only state cop in charge of the whole county that evening, showed up, telling us he was happy we gave him something to do.
My carjacking did not make the news in Philly: an other one was on the news that night. In perspective, that was only a spec on our life over there. No big deal.

We moved in 1996. Just reminiscing about this endless crossing pass with these low lifes, my hands are shaking.
We rarely tell those stories to people nowadays (all this was only a very small drop). But sometimes, driving through a town, we will spot activities we have become so familar with. We always know what's happening around us. 20 years is not easy to forget.

When we are home, we now live by our own "code green": we have stopped locking the vehicles in the driveway. I think we finally got the idea.

You should not have left this soap box standing there.

[jpurdy]

"We have stopped locking the vehicles in the driveway"

Glad to hear you have made the change to your code green

[85MH325]

Chantal,

I was a cop in San Diego for 11years. Married, divorced, remarried and lived in a burg called Spring Valley on the edge of the barrio/ghetto in SD County. We were awakened one night by six police cars, lights & sirens going who had pursued a Nissan 280Z into a telephone pole across the street. Cops in the yard, guns waving, shouting commands to the two gang members who had stolen the Z car; members undoubtedly of the then-infamous 43rd St. Mad Drivers who stole Nissan Zcars and baited cops into chases. Anyway, this happened about 3AM right outside our bedroom window and my (then) new wife shook me to consciousness (I didn't even wake up.) I got up to mollify her and looked out the window. Saw cops with guns, police cars, a Z car, and two suspects. Said, "It's nothing, just a couple of gang members in a stolen car. Go back to sleep." And I did. Of course SHE didn't. The next morning, I realized how numb I had become to the realities of living in the big city. It wasn't too long after that we moved to NoCal north of wine country to escape. Now we're in Iowa. Condition Green most of the time.

I worked the ghetto off-and-on for a number of years. Folks who haven't had your experiences or experienced battle in the military really don't have a first-hand understanding of that kind of long-term stress. Trust me, I can relate!

You have described the conditions well and it was a wonderful commentary!

[femuse]

The comments about try to act safe, are of course well valid.... but, people shouldn't get a false sense of security.

If you drive a BMW, wear jewlery, park in a dark alley, you are looking for it.
When I got car-jacked, I drove a beat-up 504 Peugeot ["it's a regular?" they couldn't drive a shift !!!], I was about 50 feet from the entrance of an all night buzzy supermarket, plenty of light..... and a security gard with a marked car about 100' away. He told the cop, he thought he saw something (gave them description of the 2nd car). And I saw them approaching. Thought I was safe. It did not looked like the "wrong" place, I did not looked like the "right" victim.

So, in the big city especially, I don't think you can be totally safe.

[PS: we "miss" the chases on our roof too. Happened at least twice]

[mcostanzo]

I just finished reading the entire discussion which covered a lot of important issues on the responsibilities and benefits to carrying a firearm. And apparently the majority of people taking the poll actually do travel with some sort of a personal weapon.

What I found interesting (and fortunate) is that no one mentioned having ever needed a gun while traveling in their A/S. I own several firearms but personally prefer not to travel with them. (I do keep 3-D-cell Maglite flashlights in the car and in the A/S.) Primarily, I use a preventative approach by selecting places to camp that are free of obvious "predators" and I remain vigilant even after we settle in. When we go to a new place, we always cruise through to see who is there. If I don't like the look of someone who is camping there (weirdo-drugie-alchie-homeless-just-between-terms-at-the-prison types) we just go someplace else. I realize that this may not be always practical (cross country trip, for example); but for how we use our A/S on weekend trips, it works well. We recently "passed" on the state park at Point Arena on the California coast based on our amateur profiling of the residents at the campground . . . there were a couple of camper that were clearly far removed from family values.

I also believe in not tempting others. We try to avoid being targets by keeping our stuff locked up and out of sight and our kids always in sight. We also train the kids to not engage with strangers. They know to say, "ask/tell an adult" if any stranger approaches them with any question or story.

I suspect that everyone is using some sort of similar "radar" and or preventative measures when traveling and enjoying camping. I am curious as to what you look for when you do your risk assessments and whether anyone has been fooled by an apparent benign environment. Could be useful information to share here.

[53flyingcloud]

mcostanzo

I am curious as to what you look for when you do your risk assessments and whether anyone has been fooled by an apparent benign environment. Could be useful information to share here.

Case study in point would be the likes of serial killer Ted Bundy.

Your radar operates on different frequency when your defensive guard is let down. He was considered smooth talking, attractive, self-assured, and successful looking.
This may well account for the actions that led to his victims demises.

ciao