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Old 03-08-2008, 07:56 AM   #29
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Just put in dodge, then ram 2500 then megacab at the top.
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Old 03-08-2008, 08:16 AM   #30
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I used to tow a 26' Terry travel trailer, with a slideout, with a Ford Excursion with the V-10 gas engine. I averaged 9mpg.

I now pull a 34' Avion that weighs about 2500lbs more, with a 2004 Dodge Ram diesel. I average 12mpg with it, including I-95 where I routinely run 70mph. If I were to slow down to 60mph (and get run over), I get about 13.5mpg.

So the diesel pulling a bigger trailer gets 30-50% better mileage towing, if you extrapolate from the above. Diesel fuel costs $3.75 around here now; gas is $3.19, for a difference of 18%. Since I already have the truck, I'm coming out ahead.

Empty, I use to average 16mpg on the highway with the Excursion and about 11 around town. The Dodge averages about 19 on the highway and 15 around town. I have gotten as high as 21 to not quite 22 with the Dodge. Mine is a 4-door long bed 4x4. My friend has a 2wd of the same and gets 24mpg with his on the highway.

But if I were buying new, I'd probably get a Hemi with cylinder deact. Truthfully, I tow about 1% of the time.

Lotsa luck,
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Old 03-08-2008, 09:06 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrchinup1
Here is the dealer with the new 2007 with 5.9l if anyone is looking for one. 28,700 seems like a great deal.
Great deal if someone just needs a 2WD vehicle with the proven 5.9L!!!

Unfortunately, I need 4WD up here in Colorado and I'd bite.
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Old 03-08-2008, 11:05 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew T
Here in Canada we have had high fuel prices for many years so very few of our customers have ever towed with big block engines. Over the years we have towed with hundreds of Suburbans like yours and our customers go everywhere with their 34' Airstreams. The big hills out west will mean you downshift once in a while but there are none that you cannot climb with plenty of margin. Make sure you downsift going down as well. If you are using the brakes going down a hill then you are in the wrong gear.

I am a bit like you and I tend to drive much faster than I should. We have a Duramax Diesel for towing fifth wheels (somehow putting an Airstream on it is like putting a lift kit and off road tires on a Ferrari). After spending some time on the test track with it however I don't like to drive it 75 solo as I know it has no margin for evasive maneuvers and the stopping distance gets really looong.

When I look at it logically once you are over about 65 MPH towing you just about break even on extra time in gas stations vs time saved on the road. Still sometimes when I am out there with the 300C and a 34 I can't resist a little "show and tell". Here is a picture of an Airstream larger than yours at the top of the biggest hill I have found.
Andrew, as this is a mpg thread; what were you getting with the 300C and 34' as well as the Buick?

And speaking of stopping distances, how looong does it take when towing a large AS with a sedan to stop from say 65 mph versus stopping with the Durmax truck?

Bill
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Old 03-08-2008, 02:08 PM   #33
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Hi Bill

The 300C gets much better mileage when my wife is driving than when I am. Towing a 55 it will run 14.5 MPG with a new 34’ though the size of the Airstream has very little effect on fuel mileage. The big difference is all the miles you drive solo around town where I find it does about 50% better than a ½ ton.

The Buick Enclave, GMC Acadia or Saturn Outlook run similar mileage to the 300. The engine and 6 speed are more efficient but the 4WD and SUV styling cost some economy.

300C’s are available in Europe with the 3.0 Litre MB Diesel. This is rumoured to be arriving in North America next year. It should do over 30 MPG solo and over 20 towing. Chrysler 300c Saloon - Home



300C Fuel Economy.
Condition
US MPG
IMP. MPG
L/100 KM
62 MPH Solo
25.8
31
9.1
75 MPH Solo
21.65
26
10.9
62 MPH Towing 34' Airstream.
12.6
15.1
18.7




Braking distance with a 34’ with electric brakes in tow from 62 MPH is 37’ shorter than the Duramax and if you stop the combination using just the vehicle brakes it is 53’ shorter. This would seem backwards but when you think it through it makes sense. The 300C brakes are almost identical size to the truck but the tires are much stickier and there is less weight to stop. As well it has a more advanced anti-lock system and if the pavement is a little rough the independent suspension keeps the tires planted much better. As well the lower centre of gravity reduces the forward weight transfer.
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Old 03-08-2008, 02:11 PM   #34
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That chart from Word did not import very well.

62 MPH solo 25.8 MPG,

62 MPH Towing 12.6,

75 solo 21.65
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Old 03-08-2008, 02:28 PM   #35
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I thought you might find this interesting.

In 1982 Trailer Life Magazine decided to have a fuel economy challenge at their rally in Green Bay Wisconsin. It was 100 mile round trip test from Greenbay to Oshkosh and back. There were inspectors on board each entry and the fuel was refilled at the same station with the same pump.

Dad thought this would be a great way for people to understand how well the then smaller Caprice Sedans performed so he drove out to Green Bay and entered with a 34' Airstream and a 1982 Caprice with a 305 engine. He kind of cleaned up it did 14.47 Miles Per US gallon. The only vehicle to beat him was a 4 cylinder toyota truck towing a hardtop which did 16MPG. A fellow with GMC motorhome with fuel injected Cadillac engine did 12.3 MPG but everyone else, fifth wheels square motorhomes etc. was in the 7-8 range. If you can read it on the plaque in the picture it says "first annual" but they never had another one. I told Dad he beat them too badly that he should have started out a 10 and worked up from there.

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Old 03-08-2008, 03:01 PM   #36
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We usually get 11 or 12 pulling the 31' with the 6L Chevy. Have had as much as 14 towing, and as low as 9. Only one of each. All of the others have been between 11 and 13.5

This isn't a lot different than we get not towing, but I go 60 (just under in a headwind, just over with a tailwind) towing, and the speed limit not towing. Makes a HUGE difference.
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Old 03-08-2008, 03:12 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew T
Hi Bill

The 300C gets much better mileage when my wife is driving than when I am. Towing a 55 it will run 14.5 MPG with a new 34’ though the size of the Airstream has very little effect on fuel mileage. The big difference is all the miles you drive solo around town where I find it does about 50% better than a ½ ton.

The Buick Enclave, GMC Acadia or Saturn Outlook run similar mileage to the 300. The engine and 6 speed are more efficient but the 4WD and SUV styling cost some economy.

300C’s are available in Europe with the 3.0 Litre MB Diesel. This is rumoured to be arriving in North America next year. It should do over 30 MPG solo and over 20 towing. Chrysler 300c Saloon - Home



300C Fuel Economy.
Condition
US MPG
IMP. MPG
L/100 KM
62 MPH Solo

25.8
31
9.1

75 MPH Solo

21.65
26
10.9

62 MPH Towing 34' Airstream.

12.6
15.1
18.7





Braking distance with a 34’ with electric brakes in tow from 62 MPH is 37’ shorter than the Duramax and if you stop the combination using just the vehicle brakes it is 53’ shorter. This would seem backwards but when you think it through it makes sense. The 300C brakes are almost identical size to the truck but the tires are much stickier and there is less weight to stop. As well it has a more advanced anti-lock system and if the pavement is a little rough the independent suspension keeps the tires planted much better. As well the lower centre of gravity reduces the forward weight transfer.
Amazing, comparable to what we get towing with the Duramax.

Has this study been published?
How were the stopping distances calculated?
When/where was the testing done?
Is there a white paper?

I would have thought the added mass and resistance of the truck would result in shorter stopping distances?

I would love to read the details.
Please post a link or .pdf if available.

Thanks, Bill
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Old 03-08-2008, 03:49 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillTex
...I would have thought the added mass and resistance of the truck would result in shorter stopping distances?...
big trucks have LOUSY stopping distances...

and especially compared to vehicles weighing 1/3 or 1/2 as much...

even mildly performance oriented cars have MUCH LARGER brakes in absolute or relative sizes...

and it is the tires that STOP the vehicle, not the brakes.

in real life situations the HIGH sitting position may give a millisecond advantage in reaction time...

but the truck's mass, tires and mechanicals are all much less capable of stopping in a short distance...

stopping distances with a disc brake equipped trailer in TOW behind a big truck..

are SHORTER than with a solo truck and no trailer.

cheers
2air'
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Old 03-08-2008, 06:53 PM   #39
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Hi Bill

Every couple of years we rent a local drag strip and test some combinations. We set up a 100' Slalom a 50' lane change with 12' lanes. As well we do some brake distance tests and usually a drag race or two for fun.

We use the deceleration lane of the strip so it is not perfectly smooth and it has a slight crown to it so it is not quite statistically perfect but it is likely more like the real world.

Andrew
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Old 03-08-2008, 08:42 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2airishuman
big trucks have LOUSY stopping distances...

and especially compared to vehicles weighing 1/3 or 1/2 as much...

even mildly performance oriented cars have MUCH LARGER brakes in absolute or relative sizes...

and it is the tires that STOP the vehicle, not the brakes.

in real life situations the HIGH sitting position may give a millisecond advantage in reaction time...

but the truck's mass, tires and mechanicals are all much less capable of stopping in a short distance...

stopping distances with a disc brake equipped trailer in TOW behind a big truck..

are SHORTER than with a solo truck and no trailer.

cheers
2air'
This I can believe.
The above does not relate the reference given of a sedan towing and stopping a large load versus a HD truck towing and stopping a large load.It would be great to see some real data.

I have not done the math yet, but I am inclined to believe the negative acceleration of greater mass would stop the system more quickly than the negative acceleration of less math.

I know there are people towing with all manor of vehicles, but my limited (30 years) experience has taught me that more mass (hd truck) versus less mass (1/2 ton truck-or sedans!) makes for greater control when towing. Some little known rule about bodies in motion or something...I believe this law applies to positive or negative acceleration.

Just because you can do something...doesn't mean you should.

Bill
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Old 03-08-2008, 09:42 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillTex
I just posted this on another (3/4 ton) thread. I don't think you NEED diesel for a 23, but would agree that is max for a 1/2 ton.
Glen, my towing data includes multiple water toys on top of the truck FYI; porta-bote and 1 or 2 kayaks, as well as bikes, ob motor, and ? in the bed. So I am not very aerodynamic when towing (to say the least)...

These are based on 1/2 ton 5.3l Suburban (3:73) and the D/A CC.


Unloaded Highway
A tank of diesel, on the high way gets me about 400 miles @ $3.70/gal= $96.20/tank or $96.20/400 miles.

A tank of gas with the Suburban, on the high way got me about 400 miles @ $3.00/gal= $105.00/tank or $105.00/400 miles.

Unloaded In-town
A tank of diesel, in-town gets me about 315 miles @ $3.70/gal= $96.20/tank or $96.20/315 miles.

A tank of gas with the Suburban, in-town got me about 315 miles @ $3.00/gal= $105.00/tank or $105.00/315 miles.

Towing
A tank of diesel, towing gets me about 315 miles (26 gals) @= $96.20/tank or $96.20/315 miles.

A tank of gas with the Suburban, towing got me about 250 miles @ $3.00/gal= $105.00/tank or $105.00/250 miles.

Disclaimers;
I never run the tank to “empty” so neither case represents a “full” tank of fuel (26 gals for the diesel truck, 35 gals for the ½ ton Suburban. i.e. Don’t confuse this analysis with mpg). A “tank is being defined as the point where I typically stop to fill up, I always tank up when I get under ¼. The mileage figures per tank ARE accurate. I am totally anal about setting the odo and re-fueling based on those miles.

Even at the high cost of diesel today (I am sure it is related to heating season and will come down soon) I am still ahead of the fuel cost/mile game driving the diesel, only slightly in day to day driving (8%) , but dramatically (43%) when towing.. I am not saying one is better than the other, but these are real costs, based on my experience for anyone considering a new TV today and concerned about real world fuel costs.


And there is no question which one I would rather tow with.



Bill
You only get 7 mpg while towing with the Suburban according to your figures. That's pretty bad, really bad in fact. My Hemi towing a 24 ft and loaded with crap gets 12mpg.
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Old 03-08-2008, 10:09 PM   #42
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I just sold the Hemi today and will now be towing with a Buick Roadmaster Estate Wagon. I have no idea about gas mileage right now but the boys love sitting in the rear facing rumble seat. I can already imagine it'll pick up the Moss Family Truckster moniker.
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