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boondockdad · 04-12-2015, 04:14 PM

I've been wanting to get there for ages.

Finally, made it last week on our way down to FL.

Of all the NP's I've had the pleasure of visiting, this one takes first place for sucking huge whale liver.

I won't bother wasting time discussing the general store, the PAY SHOWERS, or the $20/night for a rustic site.

My beef is how the NPS is running Mammoth Cave, itself.

$5 "self-guided" tour is about 50 yards on nicely landscaped pavers, then manicured path. Everything is roped off. I guess I can understand the "No Flash Photo", but no tripods? no monopods??
It's amazing how they can so effectively drain this incredibly short trek of any wonderment.

I set my SLR on a rock to take a long exposure, and some Park service Nazi with a 20,000 lumen flashlight starts screaming at me to get off the rocks.
Seriously?
This is what 'maintaining our national treasures' have become?

The two "guided tours" fill up inside 10 minutes after the doors open at 9am. Couldn't do either since taking the whole family would have cost a small fortune, and it didn't fit our schedule.

I'm sick and tired of all the fences, walkways, "KEEP OUT" and "KEEP OFF" signs.
It's a NATIONAL PARK. It's supposed to be there for our enjoyment. Don't tell me a million visitors a year is going to have more an impact than the raw power of nature, itself. The Yellowstone earthquake of '59 changed the park more in 10 minutes than 10,000 years of human interaction could have.
Besides, it's NATURE. It's supposed to change.

If some moron wants to wander down a hole, completely unprepared or uneducated; "sorry", I say. Too bad, so sad.
But no, big nanny government has to fence everything off and lock it down to cater to the lowest common denominator.

So, now the awesome natural phenomenon of Mammoth Cave has all the magic of a Disney ride.

/rant

**moosetags** · 04-12-2015, 04:29 PM

Thanks for the warning. We have become somewhat disenchanted with the National Parks in recent years. The Parks have become so "controlled" that it almost takes the fun out of going.

In recent years we have become fans of the National Forests. They are must more inviting.

Brian

**Rocinante** · 04-12-2015, 04:32 PM

Visit Carlsbad Caverns National Park instead. It will blow your mind relative to the Mammoth Cave Experience you described.

eubank · 04-12-2015, 04:45 PM

It is kind of hard to decide how to manage these things.

Take, for instance, Petrified Forest. It isn't roped off, of course. And it is also nearly devoid of the very petrified wood that made it an attraction in the first place, all of it carted off by the hordes of tourists. It's a sad testament to the honesty of us all.

Lynn

boondockdad · 04-12-2015, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eubank

It is kind of hard to decide how to manage these things.

Take, for instance, Petrified Forest. It isn't roped off, of course. And it is also nearly devoid of the very petrified wood that made it an attraction in the first place, all of it carted off by the hordes of tourists. It's a sad testament to the honesty of us all.

Lynn

This is sadly true.
Cave paintings and ancient art, too.

But, I would submit there are ways to deal with theft and vandalism, without turning the whole place into a Walmart checkout aisle.

Jaxon · 04-12-2015, 04:53 PM

I'm not so sure its the "nanny government" thing as much as it is experience has taught the NPS that most people do not have a clue and will destroy what nature gave us.

Imagine if you will, no ropes and a million initials, "Tom ❤️ Mary", "Kilroy was here" and trash all over the place. Sorry your experience was so bad, most nat'l parks aren't that bad or controlled.

Hear about how congress just voted to sell off national parks and allow private concessions on them? Teddy Roosevelt must be turning over in his grave!

boondockdad · 04-12-2015, 05:02 PM

I've not heard that. Any idea what SB number?

I'd agree Teddy is rolling over, and not just over the NPS 'Disney-cation' of these national treasures.

BoldAdventure · 04-12-2015, 05:09 PM

I tend to agree, I consider myself a conservationist. I want to conserve, protect and let everyone enjoy our parks. There are those who think you shouldn't be allowed outside of a city, and most of them are currently setting NPS policies. They don't want to really make the parks or public lands accessible, but rather turn them into "human no go zones" - their words.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaxon

I'm not so sure its the "nanny government" thing as much as it is experience has taught the NPS that most people do not have a clue and will destroy what nature gave us.

Imagine if you will, no ropes and a million initials, "Tom ❤️ Mary", "Kilroy was here" and trash all over the place. Sorry your experience was so bad, most nat'l parks aren't that bad or controlled.

Hear about how congress just voted to sell off national parks and allow private concessions on them? Teddy Roosevelt must be turning over in his grave!

And here, I agree with this, this lends itself to the above thinking. A lot of people are really just.... I don't know a nice way to say it, but the average American has an IQ 115. That's about 5th grade.

And you know what, they have to be roped off. If you have a population of intelligent, responsible caring people, you wouldn't need a nanny state now would you.

I think one breeds the other.

And thats about as far as I want to go with the comments before this turns into a locked thread.

Silverflames · 04-12-2015, 05:19 PM

Was the NP ran by a contractor or the Federal NP service?

SeeMore · 04-12-2015, 05:22 PM

...congress just voted to sell off national parks and allow private concessions on them... Not quite yet.

Actually, the U.S. Senate passed a budget amendment sponsored by Sen. Lisa Murkowski, R-Alaska & the chair of the Energy and Natural Resources Committee, supporting the idea of selling, transferring, or trading federal lands to the states - private concessions were not addressed. So far the measure is purely symbolic. It doesn't cover any specific parcels nor give Congress any kind of new authority to dispose of federal holdings. Specific proposals still have to make it past the House, Senate and the White House to go through.

spenfolder · 04-12-2015, 06:01 PM

Unfortunately, there are just too many really stupid people in the world who ruin the experience for the rest of us.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYFD18BwmJ4

Stan
Salt Lake City

AWCHIEF · 04-12-2015, 06:32 PM

Management is required to rule according to the lowest common denominator of the visiting public. Face it people really are quite stupid.

n2916s · 04-12-2015, 06:37 PM

As a sometimes seasonal park ranger, I have to say that almost every restrictive rule that comes down the pike is the result of some remarkably thoughtless or outright stupid behavior on someone's part that involved damage to the natural features, damage to the person involved or, worse, innocent bystanders and/or resulted in the involvement of lawyers.

The vast majority of people in a park service uniform would much rather be helping you make the very most of your visit than playing nanny. If you had a bad encounter with one of us, I am truly sorry, but you really should volunteer sometime to see the job from our side of the fence. I think you would be shocked.

Mike

Florida 55 · 04-12-2015, 07:01 PM

Having stayed in a number of wonderful state park campgrounds around the country, I am appalled at the condition of most NPS campgrounds. Very few seem to have hookups, the sites are often too small or poorly laid out for modern RV's. Facilities are old and poorly maintained. Price points at most parks are now $20 or higher for no hookups, primitive facilities, and marginally maintained infrastructure. It seems as though the management of the NPS is actively discouraging people from camping in RV's at National Parks and monuments.

featherbedder · 04-12-2015, 07:01 PM

Not only NP but Starved Rock state park in Il had same problems now much off limits. this was caused by inconsiderate idiots, graffiti, damaging every thing. This park has historical value from Indian tribes fighting & prob. I used to go there when teenager. we respected things. Went there 3 yrs. ago do not recoginise any thing now also, I agree with n2916s post as it what I was ref. about Starved Rock in Il.

Tim A. · 04-12-2015, 07:11 PM

It is too bad you were so disappointed. It is nevertheless necessary to understand that cave systems are not as robust as they may appear to be.

The Mammoth NP caves formed and continue to form through solution of limestone by surface and subsurface water. Carbon dioxide in the water makes it acidic enough to dissolve the limestone. Support for rock in the ceilings may disappear and the same can happen to the floor rocks. Well prepared paths and no access to other areas are safety measures, quite in addition to protecting delicate rock structures (which may not appear so very delicate!).

Tim

SeeMore · 04-12-2015, 07:15 PM

...It seems as though the management of the NPS is actively discouraging people from camping in RV's at National Parks and monuments...

Actually, it is our politicians who have budgeted less dollars each year trying to balance expenditures. 5% per year cuts mean fewer days open to the public, less staff, program cuts, delayed seasonal openings, restricting access areas, doing less maintenance, and even some rv/camp areas being closed.

Silverflames · 04-13-2015, 06:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeeMore

...congress just voted to sell off national parks and allow private concessions on them... Not quite yet.

Actually, the U.S. Senate passed a budget amendment sponsored by Sen. Lisa Murkowski, R-Alaska & the chair of the Energy and Natural Resources Committee, supporting the idea of selling, transferring, or trading federal lands to the states - private concessions were not addressed. So far the measure is purely symbolic. It doesn't cover any specific parcels nor give Congress any kind of new authority to dispose of federal holdings. Specific proposals still have to make it past the House, Senate and the White House to go through.

I stayed at Salt Springs in the Ocala National Forest last year, and it appears that all of their camp grounds there are ran by concession corps.

Well it's a shame to hear congress is making an ideological decision to give away our national parks and lands. I'm sure this will end with less access, greater cost, and poorly maintained parks.

D Greene · 04-13-2015, 06:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silverflames

I stayed at Salt Springs in the Ocala National Forest last year, and it appears that all of their camp grounds there are ran by concession corps.

Well it's a shame to hear congress is making an ideological decision to give away our national parks and lands. I'm sure this will end with less access, greater cost, and poorly maintained parks.

And that my friend is a direct result of outsourcing management of our national treasures to the lowest bidder. There are some things government does better. IMHO.

paiceman · 04-13-2015, 07:16 AM

Years ago in a much distant former life I was a Military Training Instructor - TI. While going through the training process to become a TI we were told by the instructors that everything we do with the recruits was geared toward a 5th grade level as that is what Americans can understand. I don't think National Park attendees are much different. We visited a number of parks last year and saw some amazingly stupid acts by people who obviously have very successful lives in the real world - got out of very expensive vehicles, not rented. So, rules are made for the masses, not individuals, unfortunate.