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Old 04-13-2015, 11:59 AM   #43
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Well said aftermath

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Old 04-13-2015, 12:06 PM   #44
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Stupid adults, sadly, have even more stupid children. The ropes are there for the children, to a large extent.

I support the NPS's efforts to protect a cave that took 100,000 years to form and can be wrecked in 10 seconds.

If you want a more "wild" experience, there's a 191,000,000 acres of National Forest.

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Old 04-13-2015, 12:12 PM   #45
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it never ceases to amaze me how many folks have been conditioned to think humans are nothing more than parasites on the earth

what a sad, pitiful existence of self-loathing that must be
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Old 04-13-2015, 12:17 PM   #46
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Aftermath is on the money.
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Old 04-13-2015, 12:31 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by afneill View Post
I, too, am confused about how the "gun happy population" is contributing to, or causing the deterioration of our national parks. I am a frequent user of the National Park System sites, as well as a life member of the National Rifle Association and a holder of a CHL. Based on "aftermath"s assertion that the "gun happy population" is partly to blame, I would be interested in knowing what I am doing wrong, other than exercising my constitutional rights. I would be glad to make amends and change my ways if only I knew what I am doing wrong. I love the National Park System.
I once saw a documentary about the changes happening in Yosemite. In it they followed a couple of "park rangers" who were patrolling the campsites on a all too "typical" weekend. They were wearing body armor and guns. Because of the increase in confrontations, mainly between fellow campers, in which weapons were visible threats more arrests were being made. This precipitated the need to build an actual jail. Yes, a jail with iron bars to hold unruly campers. I applaud your membership in the NRA and can only hope that you are among the responsible owners. Not all who carry are responsible hence the need for jails in our national parks and a degradation of the camping experience.

Originally Posted by boondockdad View Post
...It's a NATIONAL PARK. It's supposed to be there for our enjoyment.

Don't tell me a million visitors a year is going to have more an impact than the raw power of nature, itself. The Yellowstone earthquake of '59 changed the park more in 10 minutes than 10,000 years of human interaction could have.
Besides, it's NATURE. It's supposed to change.

But no, big nanny government has to fence everything off and lock it down to cater to the lowest common denominator.


For our enjoyment! Exactly, but how can I enjoy the parks if people trample them into non existence? Carving initials into cave walls is not something I enjoy. In order to enjoy things for posterity there will have to be rules to protect these sites from those who do not respect others. I think you will have to agree to that basic premise. It is sad, but also true in today's world.

Yes, nature changes all things but I don't think she uses knives to carve initials or spray paint to leave her mark.

Personally a big nanny comes in handy now and then to protect our treasures from those who would do otherwise. On this point we can agree to disagree.

Originally Posted by boondockdad View Post
Maybe you missed the subtlety in my OP but, the 'Historic Entrance' was also very well maintained.

Well, I do enjoy boondocking.. but, I also enjoy the many attractions found within our National Parks.
You might not realize but, the whole reason NP's were established was to protect these natural resources for all generations of Americans to enjoy.

As for rules, someone said it better than I:
"good men do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad men will find a way around the laws."
Yes, I agree I missed your "subtlety". It sounded more like a rant.

I agree totally with the second statement here. We are on the same page but your definition of "enjoy" is different from mine. I suppose you want total freedom to walk wherever you want, to take pictures whenever even though the flash degrades paintings and petroglyphs, and whatever else you feel entitled to do. I am happy just to be able to see what is left of some of our great natural wonders even if it means that I will have to stay behind the rope.

So what is your suggestion about dealing with the "bad men will find a way around the laws"? It is the bad men out there that are causing all the trouble, the ropes, the signs and so on.

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Old 04-13-2015, 12:45 PM   #48
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I think the original post ended with a /rant signoff - so yes, it was a rant.
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Old 04-13-2015, 01:40 PM   #49
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Caves like Mammoth are very fragile ecosystems that can be irreparably damaged by human intrusion, no matter how well-intended. Just the exhaled moisture-laden carbon dioxide of large numbers of visitors can damage the cave and the creatures that live in it.

In addition, Mammoth Cave is a limestone carst formation, and its "ceilings" have been known to fall suddenly. Typically, there is no warning of such dangerous falls. Consequently, visits into the Cave must be carefully controlled for the safety of both visitors and Cave.

There's a lot to learn on the multiple guided tours of Mammoth that are available to the public, but if you're looking for a highly-decorated cave, Mammoth probably wouldn't be your cup of tea, in spite of its fascinating history.

In our travels, we've always found NPS rangers and interpreters to be knowledgeable and helpful. If they tell you not to approach the ponies at Assateague National Seashore, it's because they don't want you to be bitten, kicked, or charged. (Yes, that happens.) If they caution children not to try to stick their body parts through the railings in Constitution Hall, it's because kids have gotten stuck when trying it. (And the rangers keep a very large jar of Vaseline close at hand to deal with such matters.)

We are very lucky to have such an excellent National Park System cared for by employees who understand the balance that must be maintained between conservation/preservation and public access. Few countries in the world have anything approaching our NPS.

And if you want an even better NPS, volunteer your time and/or your dollars. Yes, the NPS is supported by taxes, but the needs of the Parks far exceed the appropriations made to them by Congress.
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Old 04-13-2015, 02:04 PM   #50
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American Indians used the caves for burial grounds, and mining

It was mined for saltpeter and other minerals during WWI and to a lesser extent, the Civil War

Doctors had a sanitarium built to house TB patients

among many other uses and occupancy Mammoth Cave experienced..

and guess what?
It's still there
all 300 miles of it
and they're finding more of it everyday

'delicate, fragile ecosystem damaged by humans' is a non-starter
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Old 04-13-2015, 02:56 PM   #51
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Question national parks

Originally Posted by n2916s View Post
The Grand Canyon proposal is planned on tribal land outside the park

I posted about corp. that wants to build on rim of canyon my post is on page 2. Yes it is on Indian land and all or part of them want this, for jobs etc. cure living in poverty also one blogger has hate white man mentality. There are 18,000 signers on petition to stop development. If I remember correctly the developer would consider not building if 20,000 signers submit petition. There are Indian reservations in Arizona that I have driven thru, these are US gov. subsidized, and I still see slum like conditions.
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Old 04-13-2015, 03:23 PM   #52
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It is very unfortunate that the idiot morons who write on walls, carve initials and names into railings and everything else they can think of don't realize the rest of the world wish thay had't have come there. Should I start scratching my name on their cars?
I can't tell the numerous place I've been where this has occured.
Many Government parks accommodate newer rec vehicles. the older ones that were established prior to the advent of RV's esp National Parks are not updated. Perhaps it is best, nothing ticks me off more than a motorhome that pulls in and immediately starts the generator going for the entire visit. When going for Fla to Nova Scotia I found that many of the CCC parks don't accomodate a 34'. My next AS will be a 30' or 28' for that reason.
I'm not a fan of KOA or similar facilities close to the interstates primarily because I don't like the ambient traffic noise. Don't drive interstates unless absolutely necessary anyway. The country roads are much more scenic and don't have the propensity to become very long "parking lots"
I understand your frustration with the National Parks, they were designed for tenters.
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Old 04-13-2015, 04:17 PM   #53
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Visited Mammoth Cave last May. My second time. We arrived just in time to sign up for one of the tours. The BEST part was watching the 3 busloads of high schoolers who showed up in tank tops, shorts, and flip flops when they got down into the innards of the cave. (Yes, my SECOND time...and I knew enough to wear something "appropriate".) I think all of them learned something important about the park.
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Old 04-13-2015, 04:47 PM   #54
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ok...having read this chain a couple of times I think the one common emotion in all these messages is a wish for more RESPECT...respect for each other's opinions, our freedom, and for our natural resources/national parks. So lets remember this and take it with us as we start a new year of travel and sight-seeing and exploring. At least WE can make a bit of difference..and we are many....regrettably we can't control anyone else's behavior. But we sure do have a variety of folks on our forum, don't we? jon
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Old 04-13-2015, 05:32 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Florida 55 View Post
Having stayed in a number of wonderful state park campgrounds around the country, I am appalled at the condition of most NPS campgrounds. Very few seem to have hookups, the sites are often too small or poorly laid out for modern RV's. Facilities are old and poorly maintained. Price points at most parks are now $20 or higher for no hookups, primitive facilities, and marginally maintained infrastructure. It seems as though the management of the NPS is actively discouraging people from camping in RV's at National Parks and monuments.
I agree that the NPs campgrounds are far from great. I really don't believe that it's the gadfly of the Park Service. I'd look to the funding congress slots them instead. It's pretty sad really how under funded they are.
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Old 04-13-2015, 05:55 PM   #56
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I say get rid of the Departments of Energy, Education, Commerce etc and send their funding to the NPS.

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